Re: BB versus SB
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#189072
01/15/10 06:39 PM
01/15/10 06:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,866 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,866
Weddington, N.C.
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You cannot deny that the small block is inherently a more efficient engine...the LA heads were designed several years later and feature angled Plugs, a better valve angle and valve centers that open on the bore centers. It also features a raised cam which allows for large strokes and reduced cam oil windage. The port cross section of a 340 is roughly only 12% smaller than that of a 440, a motor that is 25% larger. It's "weaknesses" are few, the 4 bolt per cylinder head clamping and it's akward 59 degree lifter angle causes the pushrod to move in an arc so it's inherently less stable at high RPM. That said, in terms of efficiency, if you pick any reasonable horsepower per cubic inch criteria up to about 1.35hp/cube the smallblock typically wins hands down, ex: it's easier to produce 340 hp from a 340 than it is to make 383hp from a 383. When we move to the stroker realm and we include AFFORDABLE upgraded LARGE PORT heads, the Big Block (by virtue of the early Ramchargers skunk works developing the Max wedge) the big block clearly pulls away. The small block Mopar is years if not DECADES behind the Chevy and Ford market (both have heads in the 380-400cfm range) in terms of affordable bolt-on race ready heads, the magnum opens up the geometry by getting away from the rocker shaft, the POTENTIAL is there but it is still untapped. my i don't really like small block Stroker RACE motors, for any reasonable money investment there is a diminishing Hp/cube return once you get up around 390 or so cubes, when the piston speed goes up and the rod ratio goes down you really need a surplus of port....Fords with the multitude of Windsor/cleveland and especially the CHI Hybrid heads have the advantage above this CID range...And even still I prefer to build all my small (stock)block strokers as moderate RPM torque motors, basically lightweight replacements for OEM big blocks which is the task they fill the best and most economically. PISTON speed and ring drag go up astronomically above the torque peak and this acts like a brake as far as the flywheel is concerned, that's why (and as I tried to explain in another post) even though the HP goes up past the torque peak, the RATE OF ACCELERATION of the crank begins at that point to slow. Keeping the torque peak in the big fat middle and keeping the peak HP RPM in the moderate piston speed range is really the most EFFICIENT (in terms of longevity and heat) use of a smallblock (or bigblock) stroker, just gear and cam accordingly. A 3.79" motor with the same heads and valvetrain that can support the higher RPM required can typically make right at the same power as a 4 incher....less piston speed = less frictional HP drag, there's a reason 500" Pro Stokers run huge bores and short strokes and can make nearly as much power as the 800" IHRA motors... All out race blocks and W9 heads are really in another $$$ league, the power is there...but the HP per $$ spent really goes up tremendously.
Last edited by Streetwize; 01/15/10 06:54 PM.
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Re: BB versus SB
[Re: 67HEMI]
#189076
01/16/10 11:31 AM
01/16/10 11:31 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 255 michigan
sturmenater
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 255
michigan
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Quote:
The reason I like big block power is the distributor is easier to get to
thats especialy nice if you have a big belly like mine plus there just cheaper to get decent power out of. and torque on demand
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Re: BB versus SB
[Re: sturmenater]
#189078
01/16/10 12:09 PM
01/16/10 12:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916 Akron, Ohio
ProSport
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
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I like them both. I was a 340 guy my whole life until 9 years ago when I tried my first mild big block and went 1.5 seconds quicker than I'd ever gone, and it was cheap! I've only owned 2 big blocks, both were dirt cheap due to finding good deals and both went 9.80's at 136 MPH in street trim. So my reason for a big block is cost, I'd have 3 times the money in a small block to run these numbers with pump gas or a light mix of race gas. And I will admit that it sucks working on a big block a-body. A big dollar stroker small block could run the same numbers or better and be easy to work on.
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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Re: BB versus SB
[Re: ProSport]
#189080
01/16/10 12:34 PM
01/16/10 12:34 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982 western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
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Quote:
I like them both. I was a 340 guy my whole life until 9 years ago when I tried my first mild big block and went 1.5 seconds quicker than I'd ever gone, and it was cheap! I've only owned 2 big blocks, both were dirt cheap due to finding good deals and both went 9.80's at 136 MPH in street trim. So my reason for a big block is cost, I'd have 3 times the money in a small block to run these numbers with pump gas or a light mix of race gas. And I will admit that it sucks working on a big block a-body. A big dollar stroker small block could run the same numbers or better and be easy to work on.
I have a 73 dart sport pump gas 408 which I don't really beleive is a high buck car. My car went 9.87 136 the first time out on a mix of 93 & 100. I have a few friends with big block strokers,some with more money invested in them than mine that hav'nt been out of the 10s yet. I drive my car on the street,none of them do. Not knocking big blocks, I like all Mopars,Just my experience.
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Re: BB versus SB
[Re: Sport440]
#189081
01/16/10 01:48 PM
01/16/10 01:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,003 Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,003
Shelby Twp. Mi
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Quote:
BigDad ,for being young pups they are funny and they are just having some fun. I like thier sense of humor . And yours as well
I like the phrase { Your old ,I'm young,] I'm beautiful, you scare children!
Thank God someone was given the license to have fun around here. And kudos to Sport for pointing it out.
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Re: BB versus SB
[Re: emarine01]
#189083
01/16/10 04:46 PM
01/16/10 04:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916 Akron, Ohio
ProSport
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
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Quote:
I have a 73 dart sport pump gas 408 which I don't really beleive is a high buck car. My car went 9.87 136 the first time out on a mix of 93 & 100. I have a few friends with big block strokers,some with more money invested in them than mine that hav'nt been out of the 10s yet. I drive my car on the street,none of them do. Not knocking big blocks, I like all Mopars,Just my experience.
What does your car weigh? Can you give us a rundown of your combo? Very impressive!
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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Re: BB versus SB
[Re: ProSport]
#189084
01/16/10 09:08 PM
01/16/10 09:08 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982 western pennsylvania
b1dartsport
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
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The car weighs 3100# Resto block,callies 4" crank,h beams,JE flatops,zero deck 11.4 CR. It has an off the shelf crane solid roller 260/266 @.50 .420 lobe,1.6 T&d rockers. Indy 360-2s 230 cc which I got from Jack Moore for $1875,BG racing set up the heads & valve job. Indy intake which I gasket matched & ported myself,4150 1050 race demon. The car has cal-traks, cut down Truck dana with spool & strange axles (4.56),904 built by Bob George, 8" A-1 5200 stall converter. I bought the car for $4,000 rolling with an 8 pt roll bar,digital 6 & all gauges and I did do a lot of waiting & scrounging for parts. I know I don't have more than $13,500 in the whole car. Its not the nicest car (Its no where as nice as your car Bob) but its not bad,and it sure suprised me with how fast it is. I think most of the guys on this board could duplicate it easily.
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Re: BB versus SB
[Re: DakFink]
#189087
01/17/10 11:10 AM
01/17/10 11:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
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This arguement never has any substance. It is mostly people who build engines over the telephone that talk about the cost comparison.
I had an ole truck blew the 360 up. Put an equal 440 in it used the same thermoquad carb. Yes, the BB was king but the truck weight 5,300#.
I raced what every looser wanted to say was a high dollar small block in KOS. I had less money in my engine than any big block racer in KOS. There was only one Big Block in KOS I didn't beat in KOS with this engine. Mike Robbins he had the same displacement in a BB. He treed me both times and the margin of victory was in the thousandts. I later broke his record after he sold his car. I have a large respect for their combo and their driving and tuning capabilities.
I run a shorter stroke engine now that unfortuneately the cost ran a little higher but still less than most BB's built with the same intent. IMO it runs pretty sorry. But, I out MPH the big blocks in the same realm of competition. A NA SB spinner is harder to find the right combo on converter and gear ratio to make the car work and right now I am in left feild.
Alluminum blocks can be bought for SB and they have many more advantages than the ones offered for BB's. Last time I checked the price was within a few $100. I wouldn't have one as I don't feel I can give up the strength in the bores and sacrifice HP. With a BB I would defineately run an alluminum block. Need to make up for the extra 200# somewhere. But, A big block would be my choice in a no penalty for displacement class.
You see no small blocks in the SSAA classes because the heads you would need to run are illegal. I think Hemis are king and should be in that class.
I like small blocks in my car. Of course a 655" predator headed engine would be fine too.
It just depends on what you are doing and what the rules are.
And the price arguement fails. A year ago you could by used P7R5 engines with all the latest trick parts very cheap. Before that you could by a W9 R3 craftsman truck engine as cheap as $5,000. Give Indy a call and see how far you would get with that money building a BB and then watch that small block wear you out.
Again I am not wanting to take sides and if you like running your BB Mopar great. If the small block is your choice that kool to. But, This daily BS arguement about money. The reason your phone call tells you a small block cost to much is because you are talking to a crook that wants to screw you over. If these guys would work a volume approach like many of the successfull BB mopar engine builders the results would be a lot different.
Leon
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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