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Re: BB versus SB [Re: pittsburghracer] #189072
01/15/10 06:39 PM
01/15/10 06:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,866
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
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Streetwize  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,866
Weddington, N.C.
You cannot deny that the small block is inherently a more efficient engine...the LA heads were designed several years later and feature angled Plugs, a better valve angle and valve centers that open on the bore centers. It also features a raised cam which allows for large strokes and reduced cam oil windage. The port cross section of a 340 is roughly only 12% smaller than that of a 440, a motor that is 25% larger.

It's "weaknesses" are few, the 4 bolt per cylinder head clamping and it's akward 59 degree lifter angle causes the pushrod to move in an arc so it's inherently less stable at high RPM.

That said, in terms of efficiency, if you pick any reasonable horsepower per cubic inch criteria up to about 1.35hp/cube the smallblock typically wins hands down, ex: it's easier to produce 340 hp from a 340 than it is to make 383hp from a 383.

When we move to the stroker realm and we include AFFORDABLE upgraded LARGE PORT heads, the Big Block (by virtue of the early Ramchargers skunk works developing the Max wedge) the big block clearly pulls away. The small block Mopar is years if not DECADES behind the Chevy and Ford market (both have heads in the 380-400cfm range) in terms of affordable bolt-on race ready heads, the magnum opens up the geometry by getting away from the rocker shaft, the POTENTIAL is there but it is still untapped.

my i don't really like small block Stroker RACE motors, for any reasonable money investment there is a diminishing Hp/cube return once you get up around 390 or so cubes, when the piston speed goes up and the rod ratio goes down you really need a surplus of port....Fords with the multitude of Windsor/cleveland and especially the CHI Hybrid heads have the advantage above this CID range...And even still I prefer to build all my small (stock)block strokers as moderate RPM torque motors, basically lightweight replacements for OEM big blocks which is the task they fill the best and most economically. PISTON speed and ring drag go up astronomically above the torque peak and this acts like a brake as far as the flywheel is concerned, that's why (and as I tried to explain in another post) even though the HP goes up past the torque peak, the RATE OF ACCELERATION of the crank begins at that point to slow. Keeping the torque peak in the big fat middle and keeping the peak HP RPM in the moderate piston speed range is really the most EFFICIENT (in terms of longevity and heat) use of a smallblock (or bigblock) stroker, just gear and cam accordingly. A 3.79" motor with the same heads and valvetrain that can support the higher RPM required can typically make right at the same power as a 4 incher....less piston speed = less frictional HP drag, there's a reason 500" Pro Stokers run huge bores and short strokes and can make nearly as much power as the 800" IHRA motors...

All out race blocks and W9 heads are really in another $$$ league, the power is there...but the HP per $$ spent really goes up tremendously.

Last edited by Streetwize; 01/15/10 06:54 PM.

WIZE

World's Quickest Diahatsu Rocky (??) 414" Stroker Small block Mopar Powered. 10.84 @ 123...and gettin' quicker!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mWzLma3YGI

In Car:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjXcf95e6v0
Re: BB versus SB [Re: ademon] #189073
01/15/10 08:37 PM
01/15/10 08:37 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 486
IL
knyech1 Offline
mopar
knyech1  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 486
IL
Quote:

wouldn't it be boring if everyone ran 500 + " BB's? Hope this doesn't turn into the gay Harley guys who look down on sportster's / import bikes ect..




Hahaha I love it when a big twin hog pulls up next to me on my little R6 and tries to intimidate....and I can't see him in my mirrors anymore in about 15sec. They just have no clue.


knyech1- '71 Sassy Grass Demon 340/904. Pump gas, 1.61 60ft, 7.439 1/8 @ 95mph, 11.824 1/4 @ 111mph "Not too bad for a pump gas 340, full of used parts and hillbilly ported stock heads." - V.B. '03 2500 5.9L HO 6-spd on 35's. 395hp/755ft-lb at tires.
Re: BB versus SB [Re: knyech1] #189074
01/15/10 08:55 PM
01/15/10 08:55 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 902
Mopar Lane,Mississippi
6
67HEMI Offline
super stock
67HEMI  Offline
super stock
6

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 902
Mopar Lane,Mississippi
2 examples of why to run big blocks would be #1 SS/AH times of 8.20's with a car over 3100 pounds #2 Pro Stock times of mid 6's, both without power adders.
The reason I like big block power is the distributor is easier to get to


'33 Plymouth 5 Window Coupe Blown Aluminum HEMI w/bolt ons (under construction) '69 Chrysler 300 Convertible 375 HP 440 '71 Plymouth Duster 360 W/EFI (Wife's Ride) '12 Ram MegaCab Dually 6.7 Cummins
Re: BB versus SB [Re: 67HEMI] #189075
01/16/10 10:12 AM
01/16/10 10:12 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 487
Charleston, SC
S
SCDaytona Online content
mopar
SCDaytona  Online Content
mopar
S

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 487
Charleston, SC
Funny in SS/AM, Scott Gove went 7.97 @ 2800 lbs with a 358" small block in 2006. Back in the Pro Stock truck era, they were going 7.30's back in 2001. Imagine where they would be today had the class continued.

Re: BB versus SB [Re: 67HEMI] #189076
01/16/10 11:31 AM
01/16/10 11:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 255
michigan
S
sturmenater Offline
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 255
michigan
Quote:


The reason I like big block power is the distributor is easier to get to




thats especialy nice if you have a big belly like mine
plus there just cheaper to get decent power out of. and torque on demand

Re: BB versus SB [Re: sturmenater] #189077
01/16/10 12:06 PM
01/16/10 12:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 626
Mid-Ohio
B
Bakaruda432 Offline
mopar addict
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mopar addict
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 626
Mid-Ohio
I saw a Swinger in one of those Mopar mags +.030 over 340 w/ stock stroke with a Turbo & a single 4-Barrel carb, owner thought it made 650 HP.

Wonder what a Cummings Turbo on a 432 ( stroker 383) would do.

Re: BB versus SB [Re: sturmenater] #189078
01/16/10 12:09 PM
01/16/10 12:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
ProSport Offline
I Live Here
ProSport  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
I like them both. I was a 340 guy my whole life until 9 years ago when I tried my first mild big block and went 1.5 seconds quicker than I'd ever gone, and it was cheap! I've only owned 2 big blocks, both were dirt cheap due to finding good deals and both went 9.80's at 136 MPH in street trim. So my reason for a big block is cost, I'd have 3 times the money in a small block to run these numbers with pump gas or a light mix of race gas.
And I will admit that it sucks working on a big block a-body. A big dollar stroker small block could run the same numbers or better and be easy to work on.


1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
Re: BB versus SB [Re: ProSport] #189079
01/16/10 12:22 PM
01/16/10 12:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
S
S/ST 3040 Offline
master
S/ST 3040  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,595
On the south side of Nowhere
Bob, I thought you were always a BB guy.
Maybe, we will get you back some day.

Re: BB versus SB [Re: ProSport] #189080
01/16/10 12:34 PM
01/16/10 12:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport Offline
super stock
b1dartsport  Offline
super stock

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
Quote:

I like them both. I was a 340 guy my whole life until 9 years ago when I tried my first mild big block and went 1.5 seconds quicker than I'd ever gone, and it was cheap! I've only owned 2 big blocks, both were dirt cheap due to finding good deals and both went 9.80's at 136 MPH in street trim. So my reason for a big block is cost, I'd have 3 times the money in a small block to run these numbers with pump gas or a light mix of race gas.
And I will admit that it sucks working on a big block a-body. A big dollar stroker small block could run the same numbers or better and be easy to work on.


I have a 73 dart sport pump gas 408 which I don't really beleive is a high buck car. My car went 9.87 136 the first time out on a mix of 93 & 100. I have a few friends with big block strokers,some with more money invested in them than mine that hav'nt been out of the 10s yet. I drive my car on the street,none of them do. Not knocking big blocks, I like all Mopars,Just my experience.

Re: BB versus SB [Re: Sport440] #189081
01/16/10 01:48 PM
01/16/10 01:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,003
Shelby Twp. Mi
HardcoreB Offline
master
HardcoreB  Offline
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Posts: 4,003
Shelby Twp. Mi
Quote:


BigDad ,for being young pups they are funny and they are just having some fun. I like thier sense of humor . And yours as well

I like the phrase { Your old ,I'm young,] I'm beautiful, you scare children!





Thank God someone was given the license to have fun around here. And kudos to Sport for pointing it out.

Re: BB versus SB [Re: HardcoreB] #189082
01/16/10 03:01 PM
01/16/10 03:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
E
emarine01 Offline
master
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,695
nc
My little W5 rig thinks its a big block and I am tired of arguing with it

Re: BB versus SB [Re: emarine01] #189083
01/16/10 04:46 PM
01/16/10 04:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
ProSport Offline
I Live Here
ProSport  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
Quote:

I have a 73 dart sport pump gas 408 which I don't really beleive is a high buck car. My car went 9.87 136 the first time out on a mix of 93 & 100. I have a few friends with big block strokers,some with more money invested in them than mine that hav'nt been out of the 10s yet. I drive my car on the street,none of them do. Not knocking big blocks, I like all Mopars,Just my experience.





What does your car weigh? Can you give us a rundown of your combo? Very impressive!


1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
Re: BB versus SB [Re: ProSport] #189084
01/16/10 09:08 PM
01/16/10 09:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
b1dartsport Offline
super stock
b1dartsport  Offline
super stock

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 982
western pennsylvania
The car weighs 3100# Resto block,callies 4" crank,h beams,JE flatops,zero deck 11.4 CR. It has an off the shelf crane solid roller 260/266 @.50 .420 lobe,1.6 T&d rockers. Indy 360-2s 230 cc which I got from Jack Moore for $1875,BG racing set up the heads & valve job. Indy intake which I gasket matched & ported myself,4150 1050 race demon. The car has cal-traks, cut down Truck dana with spool & strange axles (4.56),904 built by Bob George, 8" A-1 5200 stall converter. I bought the car for $4,000 rolling with an 8 pt roll bar,digital 6 & all gauges and I did do a lot of waiting & scrounging for parts. I know I don't have more than $13,500 in the whole car. Its not the nicest car (Its no where as nice as your car Bob) but its not bad,and it sure suprised me with how fast it is. I think most of the guys on this board could duplicate it easily.

Re: BB versus SB [Re: b1dartsport] #189085
01/17/10 02:24 AM
01/17/10 02:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
ProSport Offline
I Live Here
ProSport  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,916
Akron, Ohio
That sounds like a great combo and very quick!

I raced my dad's 71' 340 Roadrunner for years and then I ran my high 11 second 340 Scamp for 11 years.

5740567-2008092300.jpg (32 downloads)
Re: BB versus SB [Re: Dunnuck Racing] #189086
01/17/10 06:01 AM
01/17/10 06:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
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DakFink Offline
mopar
DakFink  Offline
mopar
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 506
Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.
I went Small Block with Twin Turbos for many reasons. Most of them more a personal preference when I started the build.

Mostly was familiarity and personel knowledge base.

I looked at BB and even talked to several shops that told me they could build me a BB for about 1/2 what it would take to built a SB with the same HP and do it on Pump gas.

One question I always had was can you keep it below 9:1 compression so I can use turbos. Most said no or be very hard (we're talking 550-600+ cui).

I also got to looking at the rules and all classed that allow Turbos give the Small Block guys a weight break. Not sure if I'll be able to use it in the vehicle I have chosen.

Another reason was that I'm using a '99 ClubCab Dakota and those things are Porkly 4000-4400 in stock trim. Try to get the weight down as much as possible especially in the front end.

And as always. My project got way out of control as a streetable week-end terror to a full on cage/chassis 25.5 racer.

I'm going to put the SB together run it a while and look at maybe going the same route in a BB later on.

Re: BB versus SB [Re: DakFink] #189087
01/17/10 11:10 AM
01/17/10 11:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
Leon441 Offline
master
Leon441  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
This arguement never has any substance. It is mostly people who build engines over the telephone that talk about the cost comparison.

I had an ole truck blew the 360 up. Put an equal 440 in it used the same thermoquad carb. Yes, the BB was king but the truck weight 5,300#.

I raced what every looser wanted to say was a high dollar small block in KOS. I had less money in my engine than any big block racer in KOS. There was only one Big Block in KOS I didn't beat in KOS with this engine. Mike Robbins he had the same displacement in a BB. He treed me both times and the margin of victory was in the thousandts. I later broke his record after he sold his car. I have a large respect for their combo and their driving and tuning capabilities.

I run a shorter stroke engine now that unfortuneately the cost ran a little higher but still less than most BB's built with the same intent. IMO it runs pretty sorry. But, I out MPH the big blocks in the same realm of competition. A NA SB spinner is harder to find the right combo on converter and gear ratio to make the car work and right now I am in left feild.

Alluminum blocks can be bought for SB and they have many more advantages than the ones offered for BB's. Last time I checked the price was within a few $100. I wouldn't have one as I don't feel I can give up the strength in the bores and sacrifice HP. With a BB I would defineately run an alluminum block. Need to make up for the extra 200# somewhere. But, A big block would be my choice in a no penalty for displacement class.

You see no small blocks in the SSAA classes because the heads you would need to run are illegal. I think Hemis are king and should be in that class.

I like small blocks in my car. Of course a 655" predator headed engine would be fine too.

It just depends on what you are doing and what the rules are.

And the price arguement fails. A year ago you could by used P7R5 engines with all the latest trick parts very cheap. Before that you could by a W9 R3 craftsman truck engine as cheap as $5,000. Give Indy a call and see how far you would get with that money building a BB and then watch that small block wear you out.

Again I am not wanting to take sides and if you like running your BB Mopar great. If the small block is your choice that kool to. But, This daily BS arguement about money. The reason your phone call tells you a small block cost to much is because you are talking to a crook that wants to screw you over. If these guys would work a volume approach like many of the successfull BB mopar engine builders the results would be a lot different.

Leon


Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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