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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: quickd100] #1851651
06/18/15 08:59 AM
06/18/15 08:59 AM
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The Great White North
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Originally Posted By quickd100
I've seen the rear main studs interfere with the seal retainer. (Actually hit the seal retainer holding it off it's mating surface.)Dave


Dave, I am fully aware of the studs and the havoc they can wreak on a Mopar. ex ( enlarging thrust cap bolt holes to 17/32" for thrust cap alignment) So yes, I have scalloped the retainer out around studs and nuts. The Mancini cap was also relieved as it extra material in that vicinity, and would definitely hang up there. Furthermore, when I take this apart I always witness the mating surface and how the thin layer of sealant is completely squeezed out and leaves the shape of the retainer. Pics on the way. Thanks though, J.Rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: Monte_Smith] #1851652
06/18/15 09:03 AM
06/18/15 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted By Monte_Smith
Originally Posted By a493demon
Do you offset the seal so it doesn't line up with the split between the block and retainer ?
I would try this. DON'T glue the seal in the block, nor in the cap. Only glue bottom and sides of seal retainer. Seal joints 90* from retainer surface. Never had one leak done this way. And of course I HATE to ask an obvious question.....but you are turning the lip on the seal the right way?


Monte, So you turn the seal 90* so the seam/parting line will be at the 12 0'clock and 6 o'clock position? I am willing to try anything at this point but fail to see how this helps.

The seal lips are facing inward-believe me when I first took it apart I was hoping I had it backwards for an easy explanation. Thanks though, J.Rob

Last edited by RAMM; 06/18/15 09:04 AM.

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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: Big D A12] #1851657
06/18/15 09:30 AM
06/18/15 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted By Big D A12
RAMM....Welcome to my hell. I feel your pain. What is the cast date of the block you are having issues with? My saga is documented in the following thread.

http://a12mopar.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1424822394/15

I finally gave up and am just going to deal with it as a maintenance item on the car.

D


Wow just read through all of it. Is your crank an Eagle?(Nevermind I see it is OEM) My block is a '68 that was cast on Hallowe'en! WTF? J.Rob

Last edited by RAMM; 06/18/15 09:33 AM.

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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851658
06/18/15 09:34 AM
06/18/15 09:34 AM
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Ambridge, Pa.
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rickraw Offline
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I'm sure u did this, but I'll ask anyway. Is the seal retainer flush with the back of the block? Maybe there is a misalignment issue. Last one I did, I put the seal & retainer in with no crank & checked to see how the parting lines lined up.

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: rickraw] #1851663
06/18/15 09:55 AM
06/18/15 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted By rickraw
I'm sure u did this, but I'll ask anyway. Is the seal retainer flush with the back of the block? Maybe there is a misalignment issue. Last one I did, I put the seal & retainer in with no crank & checked to see how the parting lines lined up.


Did this. No crank in block, seals in, everything was nice and round. Parting lines almost not detectable by finger. Did this twice actually. Thanks, J.Rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851687
06/18/15 11:07 AM
06/18/15 11:07 AM
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Romeo MI
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Originally Posted By RAMM
Originally Posted By rickraw
I'm sure u did this, but I'll ask anyway. Is the seal retainer flush with the back of the block? Maybe there is a misalignment issue. Last one I did, I put the seal & retainer in with no crank & checked to see how the parting lines lined up.


Did this. No crank in block, seals in, everything was nice and round. Parting lines almost not detectable by finger. Did this twice actually. Thanks, J.Rob


When you put it in the block with no crank.. did you have the
side seals in it.. I have seen where the retainer was cut shallow
on one side.. it forces the retainer over... this was a after
market retainer
wave

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 06/18/15 11:07 AM.
Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1851688
06/18/15 11:11 AM
06/18/15 11:11 AM
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The Great White North
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Originally Posted By MR_P_BODY
Originally Posted By RAMM
Originally Posted By rickraw
I'm sure u did this, but I'll ask anyway. Is the seal retainer flush with the back of the block? Maybe there is a misalignment issue. Last one I did, I put the seal & retainer in with no crank & checked to see how the parting lines lined up.


Did this. No crank in block, seals in, everything was nice and round. Parting lines almost not detectable by finger. Did this twice actually. Thanks, J.Rob


When you put it in the block with no crank.. did you have the
side seals in it.. I have seen where the retainer was cut shallow
on one side.. it forces the retainer over... this was a after
market retainer
wave


No side seals were in, but I also fill the side channels with RightStuff when I install--so no side loading is present in this case. J.Rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851725
06/18/15 12:21 PM
06/18/15 12:21 PM
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I'm on the edge of my seat with this one. I am actually dealing with this exact issue right now. I have assembled several Big Blocks over the years and have never had a leaking problem at the back of the block. The block and seal retainer I'm using was used in the past with a factory crank and no leak. The difference now is a Ohio Crankshaft 4.250 crank and BRC aluminum main caps. I am running it on a run stand. It doesn't start leaking until the oil get's hot and then it only leaks when you rev it. When I initially assembled it, I was a little concerned with the side seal on the one side of the cap because it didn't seem like it slid in all the way so I figured that was the problem. When I pulled the pan off to have a look I noticed witness marks on the windage tray and the gasket was chewed up there from the main cap studs. I then figured that this must be causing a leak at the back of the pan. I clearanced the windage tray so it wouldn't hit the main studs replaced the side seals put a light coat of silicone where the retainer meets the block, a small dab of the Right Stuff on the ends of the rear main seal (I stupidly didn't change the seal). I ran it again no leak when it's cold as soon as the oil gets hot and thins out when you rev it it starts dripping. I can't tell where it's originating from because everything is so clean and the Valvoline VR-1 is colorless. I bought a bottle of dye to put in the oil and will check with an UV light to try and pinpoint where it's leaking from. This is driving me crazy due to limited time to work on this stuff. I'm hoping to run it tonight. If I learn anything I will report back. Good Luck and thanks for starting this.

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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851750
06/18/15 01:15 PM
06/18/15 01:15 PM
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Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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I used phosphorescent dye (works with a black light) to check a set of heads. They lit up like a Christmas tree at every crack. If there is a dye like this that can be safely used with motor oil, you could trace the leak easily.


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851770
06/18/15 01:39 PM
06/18/15 01:39 PM
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reynoldsburg,ohio
poppaj Offline
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There is a small oil pressure relief hole drilled in the block in the rear. It relives full pressure from the rear seal. Went thru the same problems a couple of years ago on a low deck motor, fought it all year found relief hole and cleaned it out Problem solved


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: poppaj] #1851784
06/18/15 02:08 PM
06/18/15 02:08 PM
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NJ
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Originally Posted By poppaj
There is a small oil pressure relief hole drilled in the block in the rear. It relives full pressure from the rear seal. Went thru the same problems a couple of years ago on a low deck motor, fought it all year found relief hole and cleaned it out Problem solved


I am not aware of this hole. Does anyone have a picture that shows the location of this hole?

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: poppaj] #1851788
06/18/15 02:20 PM
06/18/15 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted By poppaj
There is a small oil pressure relief hole drilled in the block in the rear. It relives full pressure from the rear seal. Went thru the same problems a couple of years ago on a low deck motor, fought it all year found relief hole and cleaned it out Problem solved


I just checked a '70 440 block I had bare here. There is no hole that I can find? J.Rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851803
06/18/15 02:42 PM
06/18/15 02:42 PM
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Never seen or heard of a hole, that relieves pressure off the seal.

Ramm, just try the sealing ends 90* apart can't hurt. And like I said, I never glue the seal in the block or retainer. Just place it in there. Place lower half of seal, put crank in, then take upper half of seal and work it around crank until you parting lines at 90*. Then put the retainer in

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: Monte_Smith] #1851839
06/18/15 03:12 PM
06/18/15 03:12 PM
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Mt. Vernon, Ohio
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plug at the cam tunnel just above the rear main seal seeping?, damhik especially the welch plugs.


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851863
06/18/15 03:35 PM
06/18/15 03:35 PM
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alaska,usa
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I know this might be a stretch but what are the odds of the seal journal on the crank not being in line with the rest of the crank? or the other way. the crank seal retaining area not in line with the line bore? i wouls at least try to check that part on the crank, seeing that that might be the 1 thing that has changed in the previous setup.

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851881
06/18/15 03:57 PM
06/18/15 03:57 PM
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st.louis,mo.
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did we put engine oil dye in it,and run with black light

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: 9secondsatellite] #1851887
06/18/15 04:02 PM
06/18/15 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted By 9secondsatellite
I know this might be a stretch but what are the odds of the seal journal on the crank not being in line with the rest of the crank? or the other way. the crank seal retaining area not in line with the line bore? i wouls at least try to check that part on the crank, seeing that that might be the 1 thing that has changed in the previous setup.


I would think this would show up when I lay crank in mains and set dial indicator on seal journal and it displays .0009" out of round. I called Eagle today and they say they keep it at .0005" or 5 tenths. They were of no help of course.

Also when I have had the crank out and installed the retainers-the seal halves line up nicely and I mean round and inline with each other. J.Rob


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Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851933
06/18/15 05:04 PM
06/18/15 05:04 PM
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alaska,usa
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9secondsatellite Offline
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Originally Posted By RAMM
Originally Posted By 9secondsatellite
I know this might be a stretch but what are the odds of the seal journal on the crank not being in line with the rest of the crank? or the other way. the crank seal retaining area not in line with the line bore? i wouls at least try to check that part on the crank, seeing that that might be the 1 thing that has changed in the previous setup.


I would think this would show up when I lay crank in mains and set dial indicator on seal journal and it displays .0009" out of round. I called Eagle today and they say they keep it at .0005" or 5 tenths. They were of no help of course.

Also when I have had the crank out and installed the retainers-the seal halves line up nicely and I mean round and inline with each other. J.Rob
yeah that should have been good at that point. another thought would be to look at the oil feed hole on the crank for that main. is it pointed to that direction? maybe drilled incorrectly so that it would direct oil flow towards seal? seems at this point like oil is aiming directly at the seal instigating the problem.

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: RAMM] #1851941
06/18/15 05:19 PM
06/18/15 05:19 PM
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North Carolina
sasquatch Offline
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Plug the valve covers up and put some air in it and try soap bubbling the seal area. I know of several top shelf mopar engine builders who are ready to rip their hair out right now over these dang seals.
Todd

Re: 440 Rear Main Seal Leak--Almost Suicidal!! (Long) [Re: sasquatch] #1851944
06/18/15 05:29 PM
06/18/15 05:29 PM
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alaska,usa
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9secondsatellite Offline
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Originally Posted By sasquatch
Plug the valve covers up and put some air in it and try soap bubbling the seal area. I know of several top shelf mopar engine builders who are ready to rip their hair out right now over these dang seals.
Todd
i like that idea. i'll try to remember that one in the future.

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