Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: STROKIE]
#181344
01/02/09 11:57 AM
01/02/09 11:57 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
I just went to Mobil 1 site and you can see 2 new Racing oils... Mobil 1 Racing 0W-20 Mobil 1 Racing 0W-30 http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Racing_Oil_FAQs.aspx#FAQs7
Thats interesting. Good for someone looking for thin weight, synthetic, safe zinc level oils. And "not for street use" seems to be the way around the EPA lower zinc level effort! Good to see high zinc, thinner oils coming out!
But note that they don't discuss; 1) The actual Zinc/Phosphorous ppm number. Not saying they aren't adequate, just at this point in the flat-tappet game the consumer is ready for numbers. 2) Group 4 PAO formulations (true synthetic) vs. Group 3 hydrocracked (as in Castrol Syntec) 'synthetic' dino oil blends.
Mobil 1 is not the oil it used to be. Thanks Judge!
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#181345
01/02/09 12:31 PM
01/02/09 12:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,870
Weddington, N.C.
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Pacnorth... can you please elaborate on the difference between the base oil differences between Group 4 and Group 3? From my research and talking to a good friend who is a surfactant (the slippery stuff in oils and soaps) chemist....I've always contended that since all Synthetics are Petroleum based, the term 'Synthetic' (defined as derived from something other that petroleum stocks...ie, wood or other derived surfactants) was a bit of an advertising misnomer.....I look at Synthetics as being more like "cherry-picked" or cultivated molecules that have uniform desired characteristics....chosen within a much more narrow range than "off the shelf" oils. The Germans had very little oil reserves during WW2....their surfactant chemists did develop "true" sythetic (i.e., not petroleum based) oils based from wood and other plant forms that they used to supplement their limited oil reserves...this is where the term originated but it had been overused in modern years. In simple terms...Traditional motor oils are made up of a more random batch of "good" and "not so good" (but still acceptable) molecules, in use it's really the 'bad' ones that break-down first which in turn dilutes the entire sump full of oil....synthetics are 'the chosen' molecules verified through testing to hold up longer so they tend to last longer under more extreme conditions....but they are not really "synthetic" in the true sense of the word.
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: Streetwize]
#181346
01/02/09 12:43 PM
01/02/09 12:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Mobil and NASA used 'true' synthetics for the space programs back in the 50's & 60's. These were PAO (PolyAlphaOlephin) basestocks. Not petroleum based. What most people consider to be 'true' synthetic. Amsoil came along in about 72(???) and said "here is this stuff in quarts, its great in your engines" (they were right). Mobil realized Amsoil had tapped into some thing big and followed suit a few years later with Mobil 1.
Sometime in the 80's Castrol came out with Syntec with was a group 3 oil, regular dino basestock EXCEPT that it was hydrocracked to a higher degree of refinement, and most all scientists agreed the resulting molecules now resembled true synthetics in every way. Some disagreed too. Mobil sued Castrol, Judge agreed that the use of the term synthetic for Syntec was fine. Its far cheaper to produce a group 3 than a 4. Mobil 1 figured can't beat em--join em, and now Mobil 1 is a blend of 3 & 4. Redline, Amsoil, Royal Purpole and a few others have remained PAO.
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: Streetwize]
#181347
01/02/09 10:11 PM
01/02/09 10:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Pacnorth...
can you please elaborate on the difference between the base oil differences between Group 4 and Group 3?
From my research and talking to a good friend who is a surfactant (the slippery stuff in oils and soaps) chemist....I've always contended that since all Synthetics are Petroleum based, the term 'Synthetic' (defined as derived from something other that petroleum stocks...ie, wood or other derived surfactants) was a bit of an advertising misnomer.....I look at Synthetics as being more like "cherry-picked" or cultivated molecules that have uniform desired characteristics....chosen within a much more narrow range than "off the shelf" oils.
The Germans had very little oil reserves during WW2....their surfactant chemists did develop "true" sythetic (i.e., not petroleum based) oils based from wood and other plant forms that they used to supplement their limited oil reserves...this is where the term originated but it had been overused in modern years.
In simple terms...Traditional motor oils are made up of a more random batch of "good" and "not so good" (but still acceptable) molecules, in use it's really the 'bad' ones that break-down first which in turn dilutes the entire sump full of oil....synthetics are 'the chosen' molecules verified through testing to hold up longer so they tend to last longer under more extreme conditions....but they are not really "synthetic" in the true sense of the word.
Group III origin: Refined from crude oil. Chemically REARRANGED through hydrocracking and Catalytic Dewaxing.
Group IV origin: Chemically ENGINEERED from pure chemicals rather than refined from crude oil.
That’s the difference. One is refined, and one is not.
The thing people get caught on is that Polyalphaolefins (PAOs) can have some basis in crude oil. For example, the colorless gas, Ethylene, is a chemical building block of PAO based lubricants. The chemical ethylene can be derived from many sources the common ones being crude oil and natural gas. It could also be derived from coal tar pitch but not as common.
So while a good Group III motor oil will have good molecular uniformity, it will not match the molecular uniformity of a top tier Group IV (PAO) motor oil.
The base stock debate today is for the most part irrelevant as the additives that are blended into modern day motor oils have more potent friction reducing abilities than the base stock in its own right.
Quite simply, this is why some motor oils cost more than others; chemical engineering and the blending of costly additives.
CompSyn
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: CompSyn]
#181349
01/03/09 02:06 PM
01/03/09 02:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317 State of confusion
Thumperdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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I must say that I`m a die hard Valvoline user and I recently switched to their 5-30 semi-synt oil and my cold start is easier, oil pressure comes up faster and it only dropped maybe 2-3 lbs hot street driving.
72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#181350
01/05/09 12:32 PM
01/05/09 12:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 338 Montreal Quebec
STROKIE
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 338
Montreal Quebec
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Just curious... What is semi synthetic formulation, 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group III or 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group IV
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: STROKIE]
#181351
01/05/09 12:55 PM
01/05/09 12:55 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826 NY usa
540challenger
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
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Quote:
Just curious... What is semi synthetic formulation, 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group III or 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group IV
I can' remember the exact numbers but when i work for Aid auto they had a quaker state rep come in and go over this.
quaker state had few different semi synthetic at the time it went something like this.
quaker state 4x4 semi was like 80% crude and 20% synth.
quaker state high pofermance was the highest blend was like 70% crude and 30% synth
So i imagine from it ranges all over the scale with different brand oils
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: STROKIE]
#181352
01/05/09 12:56 PM
01/05/09 12:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814 Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,814
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Just curious... What is semi synthetic formulation, 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group III or 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group IV
You won't find "Pure Crude Oil" in any motor oil (at least you hope not), Petroleum based yes, but it is refined. As far as Group 3 or Group 4 under the "Synthetic" heading? You/We don't know, could be either, thanks to a Judge that ruled in favor of Castrol calling their "Syntec" line Synthetic. Syntec is a group 3, an oil that has been hydrocracked to a further degree than 'regular' oils. Molecularly changed, as CompSyn point out, and therefore the courts stated since the molecules are different, they have been 'synthesized'.
Since that decision, many "Synthetics" including Mobil1 are a group 3 or a blend of 3&4.
SemiSynthetics are , of course a blend of regular petro juice and 3 OR 4.
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#181353
01/07/09 03:34 AM
01/07/09 03:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285 Pacific NW USA
CompSyn
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Pacific NW USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Just curious... What is semi synthetic formulation, 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group III or 50% Pure Crude oil / 50% Group IV
You won't find "Pure Crude Oil" in any motor oil (at least you hope not), Petroleum based yes, but it is refined. As far as Group 3 or Group 4 under the "Synthetic" heading? You/We don't know, could be either, thanks to a Judge that ruled in favor of Castrol calling their "Syntec" line Synthetic. Syntec is a group 3, an oil that has been hydrocracked to a further degree than 'regular' oils. Molecularly changed, as CompSyn point out, and therefore the courts stated since the molecules are different, they have been 'synthesized'.
Since that decision, many "Synthetics" including Mobil1 are a group 3 or a blend of 3&4.
SemiSynthetics are , of course a blend of regular petro juice and 3 OR 4.
To clarify, there was no “law suite” between Mobil Oil Corp. and Castrol North America, Inc. Rather, it was a complaint that was brought to the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Council of the Better Business Bureaus.
Read more on this topic at the moparts.com post: A Defining Moment For Synthetics
CompSyn
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Re: Mobil 1 New Racing oil...
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#181355
01/07/09 12:21 PM
01/07/09 12:21 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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What about Brad Penn Oils? I thought this was as close to crude oil as you can get?
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