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My Track School Day #1808184
04/20/15 11:09 PM
04/20/15 11:09 PM
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ahy Offline OP
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I thought I'd share a bit about my drivers school day. I joined the NSSCC club and signed up for a day of HSAX training at Blackhawk Raceway. Mitch joined for the day as unofficial coach.

An early morning to get to the track then tech inspection at 7:00 AM. Spare tire, jack and tool box out and numbers on. Even the glove compartment had to be emptied.

There were about 12 students in the HSAX class with a mix of cars... 2 or 3 Corvettes, Mustangs, a Pontiac, a gen 2 Neon and a Audi TT. A nice bunch in all. The school was very organized and ran on or ahead of schedule all day.

I got paired up with Bill as instructor... an experienced racer and very patient with a newby. On the first "station wagon" laps in Bill's new Challenger he asked about my experience... easy answer, zero. Then into my old Challenger. All morning and into the early afternoon, we got 10-15 min of track time each hour. Very intense and lots of fun. Each time working on technique and picking up the pace. The car did great with exception of rear brakes... more on that later. The nut behind the wheel needs more practice.

An HSAX run has a standing start... like a drag race. It took some practice to get launched smoothly and feather the throttle through 2'nd gear to avoid spinning then into the first turn.

At first I was fighting moderate excess rear brake bias... its close with weight in the trunk but not so good emptied out. As the day continued it got worse. The Challenger goes right down the straights... ~80-90 on the short straight and ~120 on the long straight so the brakes get a workout. I can tell you what happens if the left rear locks up coming into a hard right corner... not pretty. I caught it a few times driving 7/10's on the slower corners... and was pretty conservative at the end of the straights. The front brakes (13" PBR/Cobra type) hung in all day with no appreciable fade but slight warpage of the rotors.

After lunch, I asked Bill what we were going to work on... he said going faster. OK faster it is. Trying to drive 10/10's and locking that rear wheel on a slower hard right put me in the grass... no damage save my pride. After that I stayed at 7/10's and almost got used to the locking left rear... there it goes again!

Last part of the day is timed runs... we did 4 each. The school official who delivered my times was very nice and told me each one was better than the last... improvement and welcome to come back (could have said much improvement needed!).

Attached are a few action pics. Also what my rear brakes looked like when I pulled them down the next day... one completely toasted and one oiled. Drum brakes and repeated HS braking do not get along well, even on the rear.

What's next? I'm working with Dr Diff on a better rear brake setup and may add front cooling ducts. Then more practice to tighten up the "nut behind the wheel". Maybe then run a competitive HSAX event.

I thoroughly enjoyed the day!






MCSCC SCHOOL APRIL 18 2015 154.jpg
Last edited by ahy; 04/20/15 11:12 PM.
Re: My Track School Day [Re: ahy] #1808188
04/20/15 11:14 PM
04/20/15 11:14 PM
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More pics

MCSCC SCHOOL APRIL 18 2015 152.jpg
Last edited by ahy; 04/20/15 11:15 PM.
Re: My Track School Day [Re: ahy] #1808192
04/20/15 11:20 PM
04/20/15 11:20 PM
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And my poor brakes

Brakes_0440_left.jpgBrakes_0441_right.jpg
Last edited by ahy; 04/20/15 11:21 PM.
Re: My Track School Day [Re: ahy] #1808215
04/20/15 11:42 PM
04/20/15 11:42 PM
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GoodysGotaCuda Offline
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Awesome! It looks like it's definitely time for a rear brake upgrade!


1972 Barracuda - 5.7L Hemi, T56 Magnum 6spd - https://www.facebook.com/GoodysGotaHemi
2020 RAM 1500
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Re: My Track School Day [Re: ahy] #1808248
04/21/15 12:28 AM
04/21/15 12:28 AM
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Jerry Offline
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whats the setup on the car? engine? suspension? auto/4spd? wheels and tires?


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Re: My Track School Day [Re: Jerry] #1808289
04/21/15 01:20 AM
04/21/15 01:20 AM
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Jerry,

The frame is beefed with connectors and torque boxes. Suspension has 1" T bars front plus FF 1 1/8" sway bar. Rear springs are repop XHD plus one full leaf added and a 3/4" FF sway bar. KYB shocks. FF UCA's and "handling" alignment specs.

Tires are Dunlop Star Spec. 265/40/17 rear and 235/45/17 front on AR "Salt Flat Special" wheels. 9.5" rear width and 8" front width. Custom ordered backspace for best tire fit. I like the tires (though now out of production/superseded). Good grip and let you know when approaching the limits. Bigger is better with tires... that said these fit the stock sheetmetal, don't rub and work well. I like the cast center AR wheels though fully forged would be lighter.

Powertrain starts with a 496 B with Ed heads, 5 speed Keisler/Tremtec and 8.75 3.23 rear.

The suspension setup seems to work well together. Pretty flat and balanced running 45 psi front and 38 psi rear (it was borderline oversteer running 35 psi square). No noticeable dive on braking.

The engine/transmission/rear works well on this track. After the standing start its basically a 3'rd gear/4'th gear (direct) track. I could use 2'nd but no point as it would just spin. If I run it to max RPM on the straight, no need for 5'th either. Nothing could catch me on the long straight. With better brakes + practice max effort speeds on the straights will be higher.

Besides improving the brakes, I mostly need to get better at driving it.

Re: My Track School Day [Re: ahy] #1808334
04/21/15 02:46 AM
04/21/15 02:46 AM
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Have you ever bolted your rear tires and wheels on the front to see if they fit and clear?


Mopar to the bone!!!
Re: My Track School Day [Re: ahy] #1808482
04/21/15 10:56 AM
04/21/15 10:56 AM
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do you think the 1" torsion bars are stiff enough?


Superior Design Concepts
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Re: My Track School Day [Re: Jerry] #1808551
04/21/15 12:39 PM
04/21/15 12:39 PM
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It was great to have Andrew come out with his stunning Challenger... he had a great fun time!

I'll be getting my car out there (Blackhawk Farms) for the wknd HPDE/HSAX event on June 6 (5 Fri camping, 6 HPDE/HSAX, 7 W2W Pace Car duties).

www.mcscc.org see schedule

Another "driver's school" (mostly track time) will be held on wknd of July 3/4 (but I can't make that event).

Those interested and within reasonable driving distance... come on out and meet up with us sometime!


Mopar Mitch "Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers! Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
Re: My Track School Day [Re: Jerry] #1808581
04/21/15 01:16 PM
04/21/15 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted By Jerry
do you think the 1" torsion bars are stiff enough?
no.

Now you'll have to say just what you'll be doing with that car. And what car it is.


Tom

"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."

-Henry David Thoreau

Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths

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Re: My Track School Day [Re: amxautox] #1808893
04/21/15 08:36 PM
04/21/15 08:36 PM
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Help is on the way for the brakes. I went with Dr Diffs 11.7" Cobra based kit which should be a good match for the front which is also Cobra based. The prop valve may actually give me useful adjustment now.

Also lots of good questions and comments on tires and T bars. Tires/wheels were fitted to give one finger minimum clearance with T bars removed. Max jounce, rebound, left and right. Wheels are custom backspace. I did up it 10 mm after the first set of tires and just catch the aluminum trim on the front. The fenders are relieved "hemi style" but the trim is not. Close enough. Flare or stretch the fenders would be the next step.

I understand the car would have more potential with more rubber, bigger T bars and better shocks. That said, it is balanced now and handles well. The beefed chassis helps the parts work together.

Besides more rear brakes, the main thing that needs practice is the driver... focus now is learning to drive it as it is... then maybe more mods to get more competitive in the corners. As Mitch says, the nut behind the wheel. The brakes will also help me use the engine... nothing on that day could catch me on the long straight but had to back off early with wounded brakes.

Re: My Track School Day [Re: ahy] #1817523
05/03/15 08:53 AM
05/03/15 08:53 AM
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Answering the call of the wild
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ThermoQuad Offline
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Ahy,
You need ducted air on the front brakes no matter what type of brakes. The rotors warped because of 2 reasons-no air and the wheel bearings were not set with a beam type torque wrench to about 90 inch pounds. I have never - ever warped a rotor...even without air. Your rear brakes should work fine - but require manual adjusters and the e brake cables need to adjusted - your pics tell me there is a problem in the rear set up with the hardware and e brake.

I don't know how well your car rotates thru the turn so I can't comment on the sway bar set up.

And lastly-you guys need to pay attention about motor mounts and torque straps from those who have been there & done that. Your right side collector is showing in the photo which is an LARGE sign that the engine pushing very hard on the right side motor mount and exhaust hangers - twisting in place. Solid mounts are not the answer but a pair schumaker style torques straps are.

Re: My Track School Day [Re: ThermoQuad] #1817557
05/03/15 10:32 AM
05/03/15 10:32 AM
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Thanks Tom. My left front wheel bearing was in fact a touch loose when I pulled it down and that was the rotor with the greatest warpage. Sounds like they need a little pre-load which I will try. Hubs are aluminum which will expand more than steel when hot. I wonder if the 90 inch pound guideline applies to aluminum hubs?

Motor mounts are Schumacher with thru bolt on the left. The engine is angled down a bit more than usual to dial in the driveline angle with Tremetec transmission... perhaps that is what you are seeing.

Re: My Track School Day [Re: ThermoQuad] #1818388
05/04/15 12:27 PM
05/04/15 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted By Tom_Quad
Ahy,
And lastly-you guys need to pay attention about motor mounts and torque straps from those who have been there & done that. Your right side collector is showing in the photo which is an LARGE sign that the engine pushing very hard on the right side motor mount and exhaust hangers - twisting in place. Solid mounts are not the answer but a pair schumaker style torques straps are.


Tom, I'm curious about your experience of solid mounts vs a pair of torque straps and why you recommend the straps over solid mounts.







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