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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: wyldebill]
#1770145
03/03/15 09:07 PM
03/03/15 09:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
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Quote:
sorry i asked. 
Call Dr Diff and get some apples to apples numbers.
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: justinp61]
#1770146
03/03/15 09:19 PM
03/03/15 09:19 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
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My 44" wide Dana, w/ladder bar brackets, Strange steel spool, 35 spline axles w/3" studs, 4.10 gear set, chrome steel cover, and yoke was 165Lbs.
Doug
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: wyldebill]
#1770147
03/03/15 09:25 PM
03/03/15 09:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
MattW
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,776
Ontario Canada
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sorry i asked.
Don McCallum 68 hemi barracuda tested all three rears in the pursuit of the very last hp and et.
Guess what, nothing changed. All where the same et and MPH.
Pick your poison.
The Dana will get you were you need to go so would the 9. Each has its place.
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: 1967dartgt]
#1770148
03/03/15 11:19 PM
03/03/15 11:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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FYI, while there are obvious weight differences, the Dana 60 is more "efficient" than an 8 3/4 rear. I've been told by several class racers that in most cases, there has been minimal, if any, change in ET. The Ford 9" is probably the least efficient of the popular rears and the Chevy 12 bolt is the best!
Are you trying to start WW III? Saying a 9" is the least efficient!  Oh the humanity!  LOL
It would be pointless to argue with the facts. 
As far as strength, I'm well aware of my old buddy Quicktree's opinion on 9" vs Dana 60's. But despite the ease of gear changes in a 9", a Dana 60 will handle anything most people would ever need. Once the optimum gear ratio is known, the drop-out center benefit isn't that big of a deal. Besides, the expense of maxing out a 9" is astronomical.
dana 60's are for trucks 9s are for racing, you can't argue facts 
A wider gear selection and the simplicity of a drop-out center section are THE ONLY benefits a 9" has over a Dana 60. Pros and a small percentage of hard core sportsman racers will benefit from a 9". Spend enough money and you can make just about anything stronger/lighter/faster than another competitive part. 
But back on topic....
If rear end weight is a concern, most likely to go faster, then efficiency should also be a concern. If you install a heavier, but stronger and less expensive rear and don't slow down, it's worth it! If a Dana 60 will result in similar ET's over an 8 3/4", then it will certainly be faster than a Ford 9" which is heavier and even less efficient than an 8 3/4".
So your not considering the double bearing on pinion, aluminum center section, the avaibilty of chromoly housings, bolt through main caps and the ability to back brace benefits? Weird I would consider all of them pluses.
you just saved me some typing 
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: dvw]
#1770150
03/03/15 11:38 PM
03/03/15 11:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
So your not considering the double bearing on pinion, aluminum center section, the avaibilty of chromoly housings, bolt through main caps and the ability to back brace benefits? Weird I would consider all of them pluses. (quote)
Can I find those in the junk yard?
Doug
can you find your motor in a junk yard? but yes you can if you can find a nodular 9". I found one once for $200 slapped a mini spool in it and beat on it for years.you can find plenty of dana's just go to the dump truck section..
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: Quicktree]
#1770151
03/04/15 12:24 AM
03/04/15 12:24 AM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
dvw
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,826
MI, usa
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Quote:
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So your not considering the double bearing on pinion, aluminum center section, the avaibilty of chromoly housings, bolt through main caps and the ability to back brace benefits? Weird I would consider all of them pluses. (quote)
Can I find those in the junk yard?
Doug
can you find your motor in a junk yard? but yes you can if you can find a nodular 9". I found one once for $200 slapped a mini spool in it and beat on it for years.you can find plenty of dana's just go to the dump truck section..
That's where I got it. Actually out of a Ford E300.
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: dogdays]
#1770152
03/04/15 12:30 AM
03/04/15 12:30 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,105
Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,105
Byron, NY
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It's a simple fact, the farther the pinion centerline is away from the ring gear centerline, as a percentage, the lower the mechanical efficiency. That's because there is more sliding of surfaces.
These are called hypoid gears. The inventor of the hypoid gear actually worked out the mathematics of the surfaces before building the first one. That flat boggles my mind. Before his invention, those right angle gear drives had the pinion centerline and ring gear centerline intersecting.
The hypoid gearset allowed car manufacturers to lower the driveshaft, thus lower the floor of the car.
Hypoid gearsets mandated the development of Extreme Pressure (EP or GL-5) gear lubes to deal with the sliding surfaces.
R.
Someone has done their home work
Bonus question; who and where was the Hypoid invented???
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60
'01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust,
'05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list
'60 Willys CJ5
'01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison
'64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: W.I.N. Racing]
#1770153
03/04/15 12:50 AM
03/04/15 12:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,819
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
It's a simple fact, the farther the pinion centerline is away from the ring gear centerline, as a percentage, the lower the mechanical efficiency. That's because there is more sliding of surfaces.
These are called hypoid gears. The inventor of the hypoid gear actually worked out the mathematics of the surfaces before building the first one. That flat boggles my mind. Before his invention, those right angle gear drives had the pinion centerline and ring gear centerline intersecting.
The hypoid gearset allowed car manufacturers to lower the driveshaft, thus lower the floor of the car.
Hypoid gearsets mandated the development of Extreme Pressure (EP or GL-5) gear lubes to deal with the sliding surfaces.
R.
Someone has done their home work
Bonus question; who and where was the Hypoid invented???
Tesla. Another factoid is that the lower the pinion to the ring relationship the stronger (think Ford 9") simply because of greater tooth to tooth contact. Also why is less efficient in terms of drag. A trade off.
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1770156
03/04/15 01:59 AM
03/04/15 01:59 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,105
Byron, NY
W.I.N. Racing
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,105
Byron, NY
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Quote:
Someone has done their home work
Bonus question; who and where was the Hypoid invented???
Tesla. Another factoid is that the lower the pinion to the ring relationship the stronger (think Ford 9") simply because of greater tooth to tooth contact. Also why is less efficient in terms of drag. A trade off.
You are incorrect sir... both accounts. The first Hypoid ring and pinion was invented by a trio of companies and patented in 1935. Ford motor company, Shell oil and The Gleason Works.
As for the 9" being stronger due to its pinion off set, one of the contributors to its weakness is its pinion offset. The fact that the crown is engaged by the pinion almost under the crown center line creates crown deflection due to the vector forces alignment with regard to the ears of the carrier bearing journals (limited to no lateral support). Meaning the vector forces are trying to push the crown and pinion away from each other deflecting the carrier bearing journals (one reason for draw thru cap bolts)and ahead of the rear pinion bearing. The reason for this potential deflection is the further the force generation from the bulk of the casting the greater the deflection will be (BTW the 8 3/4 has similar issues). Un-like the 12 bolt and Dana where the force is generated directly between the caps and over the rear pinion bearing. This brings me to the fact that a 9" needs a crown support to keep the crown from folding over in high HP apps as well, another feature (this time from ford)is the rear pinion bearing to bolster the 9" strength for everyday use, with out it. the pinion head simply pops off.
You are correct that more tooth engagement typically relates to a stronger gear set due to less tooth deformation but the gear on the 9" does not suffer from tooth deformation it suffers from system deformation.
'01 P1500, Blown/Inj BAE,/Veney ,Bruno/CS2,Dana 60
'01 Dodge 3500 S Cummins Auto, Fresh air kit, 4" Exhaust,
'05 Dodge Magnum R/T - Too Much to list
'60 Willys CJ5
'01 International LPX - Project,DT466, Allison
'64 Plymouth Valiant, Inj 528 Hemi, 2spd
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: W.I.N. Racing]
#1770157
03/04/15 02:30 AM
03/04/15 02:30 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
It's a simple fact, the farther the pinion centerline is away from the ring gear centerline, as a percentage, the lower the mechanical efficiency. That's because there is more sliding of surfaces.
These are called hypoid gears. The inventor of the hypoid gear actually worked out the mathematics of the surfaces before building the first one. That flat boggles my mind. Before his invention, those right angle gear drives had the pinion centerline and ring gear centerline intersecting.
The hypoid gearset allowed car manufacturers to lower the driveshaft, thus lower the floor of the car.
Hypoid gearsets mandated the development of Extreme Pressure (EP or GL-5) gear lubes to deal with the sliding surfaces.
R.
Someone has done their home work
Bonus question; who and where was the Hypoid invented???
Spicer invented it
EDIT
Maybe I'm wrong but I believe it was Spicer who made
the first ones... but I found this as well
Mr. Trbojevich’s most notable work that brought him international recognition was the invention of the Hypoid gear. First published in 1923, it was a new type of spiral bevel gear employing previously unexploited mathematical techniques. The Hypoid gear is used on the great majority of all cars, trucks and military vehicles today. Together with his invention of the tools and machines necessary for its manufacture, the Hypoid gear became an integral part of the final drive mechanism of automobiles by 1931. Its effect was immediately apparent in that the overall height of rear-drive passenger automobiles was reduced by at least four inches.
But I also read that Packard was putting the Hypoid
gear in their cars in 1918
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 03/04/15 02:15 PM.
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: SportF]
#1770161
03/04/15 06:15 PM
03/04/15 06:15 PM
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,770
Pa
Wv68charger
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,770
Pa
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Quote:
Rear end opinions have now graduated to the top of my 3 favorite Moparts topics, along with cone sure grips, and silicon brake fluid.
As a note:
Hypoid gears are cut on a hypoidal curve.
ALL gears, under load, try to force each other apart. This is what makes a sure grip work.
Don't forget pinion angle!
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Re: weight difference 8 3/4, 9 in and d60
[Re: wyldebill]
#1770162
03/05/15 12:35 AM
03/05/15 12:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
fishy340
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,112
LONG ISLAND
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I have everyone mentioned in this thread and NOTHING weighs as much as a Dana center section. My 8 3/4 weighs within a lb or 2 of the 9" I bought however my 9" is braced,has 3.5" tubes w gun drilled 40 spline axles and a beautiful strange MW looking aluminum center section.
Last edited by fishy340; 03/05/15 12:36 AM.
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