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Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176834
12/28/08 02:17 PM
12/28/08 02:17 PM
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Sk. Canada
RemCharger Offline
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Quote:

Seems pretty simple. If the hemi was the be all and end all of naturally aspirated engines they would be ruling the heads up classes of the world. I think we can all agree that they do not do that.


But at the same time we can all agree that no engine can compete with a Hemi in S S/S classes?
How much hp does dthemi make N/A? (being a purpose built nitrous engine?)

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RemCharger] #176835
12/28/08 02:26 PM
12/28/08 02:26 PM
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Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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SO now we are putting restrictions on the engines??? The SS stuff has plenty for sure. At best it means in a purely stock form that the Hemi had better heads. But I did not realize we were now restricting the engines to stock type heads. In that case I think we can all agree there is no comparison.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176836
12/28/08 02:37 PM
12/28/08 02:37 PM
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nc
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moeflo Offline
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Quote:

Seems pretty simple. If the hemi was the be all and end all of naturally aspirated engines they would be ruling the heads up classes of the world. I think we can all agree that they do not do that.




This being titled "hemi vs. wedge", please share with us where a wedge is the preferred layout for any class, anywhere, unless the rules require it to be "inline valves".

I don't see how you can say an IHRA P/S engine isn't a hemi, but you can call a DRCE or a hemi 99 a wedge. Not with a straight face anyway.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176837
12/28/08 02:40 PM
12/28/08 02:40 PM
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Phoenix,Az.
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hemicop Offline
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You've got to be kidding! The ALL-TIME heads-up classes. T/F, F/C & IHRA P/S all use Hemi heads. Whether they call 'em Mopars, Fords or now Chevys the design is still the same-- HEMI. When NHRA DID have heads-up P/S racing it was so one-sided they added weight to the Hemi cars & NASCAR flat-out banned them for a year until that political mess could get straightened out.
Is A hEMI PERFECT? OF COURSE NOT! they're expensive, finicky, huge, heavy & comparitively complicated. But if price is no concern & you're not limited by rules or physical space, a hemi anything is the way to go.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemicop] #176838
12/28/08 02:45 PM
12/28/08 02:45 PM
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Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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Your kidding right?? Did you miss the NATURALLY ASPIRATED part of the answer? Oh yeah this is almost 2009 not the 1970's

Well being a guy who has run both Hemi and Wedge configured naturally aspirated Mopars I will not be going back to a Hemi, period. Well unless it is a 99 Hemi but who are we fooling that aint a Hemi anyway.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176839
12/28/08 02:48 PM
12/28/08 02:48 PM
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nc
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moeflo Offline
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No restrictions on anything. Look at unlimited N/A classes. You won't find a "pure" hemi or wedge. The laws of physics will dictate the direction if the rules are allowed to stand long enough. And, what we're seeing is a merge of the two, each with variations favoring the target class. The ideal 820" cylinder head won't look like the ideal 500" head. It leans toward the hemi end of the scale because it desperately needs the extra valve area and flow. The 500" still looks to favor the smallest chamber as they're hugely over-square and can obtain the valve area needed with shallow angles.
All one has to do is follow the evolution of such classes, and it becomes clear which is best in all out racing. And the answer is it's always a combination. To which side of center the combination falls into depends on the specific class.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: moeflo] #176840
12/28/08 02:57 PM
12/28/08 02:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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I agree that at the top of the heap the heads are niether wedge nor hemi. Heck the only competitive and regularly winning Mopar I can think of is the Wedge -1 headed deal of Andy Mayes. He has now switched to a B1, I imagine if they thought they could win and make more power with a Hemi they would do it.

In the ned there is not right answer to this question i am sure. It is one of those winter debates that goes on around here every year. We get off the wall statements from key board racers, opinions from those who have used both, opinions from professional engine builders and the question always goes unanswered. People prefer the engine type they prefer. I can only go on what I have tried. In the past two years I have ran two Hemis and two wedges and have formed my opinion. The weight of a Hemi piston and the cost of the valvetrain are enough to keep me in wedges for a good long time. FWIW there was more money in the 900hp Hemi I had than the 1041hp Wedge I now have.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176841
12/28/08 03:03 PM
12/28/08 03:03 PM
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Oregon,USA
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RAT PATROL Offline
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Al, you have an outstanding car! I hope to be lucky enough this year to get to see it in person!

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Bob_Coomer] #176842
12/28/08 03:43 PM
12/28/08 03:43 PM
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sing sing
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unknown Offline
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Wedges are cool , but Hemis are awesome. Now lets all have a beer!

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: Al_Alguire] #176843
12/28/08 04:11 PM
12/28/08 04:11 PM
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Phoenix,Az.
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hemicop Offline
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Physics don't change with time & I DID mention some n/a types of racing. I've run wedges & hemis too & while I agree,to a point, 21st century technology is different, given the parameters I mentioned, there's no easy way to beat a hemi.
It's not just me talking --- engine builders like Sonny Leonard, John Kaase, Arias Pistons & a few others, all (& in some cases still) use & develop hemi heads where rules allow. The BEST example is IHRA P/S --- no matter what the brand, some derivitative of a hemi head is used

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemicop] #176844
12/28/08 04:28 PM
12/28/08 04:28 PM
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Eighty Four, PA
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Kind of getting off track for a Hemi vs Wedge topic. Let's go back to pinion angles and 8-3/4 rearends.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: hemicop] #176845
12/28/08 04:29 PM
12/28/08 04:29 PM
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God's Country Maryland
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What it boils down to is shrouding of both valves, intake and exhaust. Both valves in the wedge combustion chamber have shrouding, restricting flow. They are shrouded by the chamber along with the cylinder itself when the valve's open. The Hemi chamber doesn't have this problem, they are getting the full use of their valves and ports with no shrouding. This is the reason they came out with the canted valve heads, to alleviate some of the shrouding of the wedge head design.


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Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: B G Racing] #176846
12/28/08 05:33 PM
12/28/08 05:33 PM
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Sk. Canada
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Quote:

Kind of getting off track for a Hemi vs Wedge topic. Let's go back to pinion angles and 8-3/4 rearends.


8-3/4 =wedge
9-3/4= Hemi.






Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: B G Racing] #176847
12/28/08 05:44 PM
12/28/08 05:44 PM
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Pa
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Quote:

Kind of getting off track for a Hemi vs Wedge topic. Let's go back to pinion angles and 8-3/4 rearends.




i dont care who you are thats some funny chit right there

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RemCharger] #176848
12/28/08 05:51 PM
12/28/08 05:51 PM
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Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize Offline
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As said the valve placement of the Hemi is superior as the valves open away (not parallel) to the bores for a better flow window. In terms of port efficiency only a 4 valve hemi can be better.

The downside to the Hemi has always been the comparatively heavy piston needed to fill up the chamber for high compression (not an issue in Blower motors) and it's heavy/complex (and not very mechanically efficient in terms of rocker ratios) valvetrain.


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Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: RemCharger] #176849
12/28/08 05:53 PM
12/28/08 05:53 PM
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Kalispell Mt.
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HotRodDave Offline
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I think the reason there is so much goin on is because of how loos someone interprets the rules of what is a Hemi or what is a wedge. If the wedge has to have in line un canted valves to be a wedge than the Hemi has to have a hemispherically shaped chamber and two directly oposite valves. If you give one wiggle room you have to give the other some wiggle room. Call a predator a "wedge" than you have to call a hemi 99 a "hemi". If you want to use the new eddy hemi head then it would only be fair to compare it to the RPM or Victor wedge. If stock for stock head comparison then compare the Maxwedge to the street hemi head. Every equal comparison of heads the hemi will win the power strugle but the wedge is quite a bit cheaper, just ask Andy Mayes, he is not loaded with $$$ like some might assume and really knows how to make a wedge work so he don't need to spend the extra $$$ a hemi would require (BTW Andy is pretty cool guy in person)


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Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: HotRodDave] #176850
12/28/08 07:34 PM
12/28/08 07:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
8secDart Offline
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I have both, the Hemi is the most torque less wonder ever made.This is with a legal SS motor.Anything I did was a pain in the a$$ with the Hemi,change intakes had to change converters,change cam,change converters.The wedge gets my vote.But having a Hemi is like having a super model for a wife,people love to look.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 8secDart] #176851
12/28/08 07:43 PM
12/28/08 07:43 PM
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Mopar Lane,Mississippi
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As long as it is a Mopar I am ok with it. Just one question, how many all motor wedge cars that weigh 3320 or whatever SS/AH minimum is, have run 8.30's @ 157 with less than 440 inches? Not very many that I know of. They are either super light, have 500 plus inches,or have nitrous or forced induction.


'33 Plymouth 5 Window Coupe Blown Aluminum HEMI w/bolt ons (under construction) '69 Chrysler 300 Convertible 375 HP 440 '71 Plymouth Duster 360 W/EFI (Wife's Ride) '12 Ram MegaCab Dually 6.7 Cummins
Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 67HEMI] #176852
12/28/08 07:52 PM
12/28/08 07:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,256
Salisbury North Carolina
8secDart Offline
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How many people have 40-60 large ones to put in a motor............I have one and they are the biggest POS I have ever had.I know a person could run as fast with a small wedge if they sent that kind of money.

Re: Hemi Vs Wedge Debate [Re: 67HEMI] #176853
12/28/08 08:00 PM
12/28/08 08:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 614
Michigan
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Get-X Offline
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Michigan
Quote:

As long as it is a Mopar I am ok with it. Just one question, how many all motor wedge cars that weigh 3320 or whatever SS/AH minimum is, have run 8.30's @ 157 with less than 440 inches? Not very many that I know of. They are either super light, have 500 plus inches,or have nitrous or forced induction.






And that's using a production head. Ofcourse some wedges using current "racing" heads come close. And as others have said, the Hemi is way more of a pain in the [Edited by Moparts - Keep it clean] than a wedge. The wedge is also much cheaper.

Knowing all of that, I still am building a 572" Hemi for my Belvedere. I have a love for them that transends cost or difficulty.


'65 Belvedere
'68 GTX
'57 Dodge pickup
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