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Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1756874
02/18/15 02:35 AM
02/18/15 02:35 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,751
Graham, WA
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Polarapete Offline
top fuel
Polarapete  Offline
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Graham, WA
Honestly, I think everyone here is missing the point...a mild 150 shot of N2O will cost in the neighbor hood of $450 to $500 for the kit and can be installed in a stock motor in an afternoon.

My 440 bracket car went from repeatable time after time 12.00 to 11.53 with one shot. Granted everything else I did to the car and the motor (4.88 Gears, Loose Converter, Solid Cam, 850 Holley, Electric Fuel Pump System, 13x31x15 M/T Slicks) made the system work on a sloppy build 440 bracket motor (no blueprinting, no cc'ing the heads, unknown final compression with stock heavy TRW 2355F pistons, Mallory dual point distributor, low performance Accel Coil). And this was in 1983. That makes the beginner NOS system the best bang for the buck. PERIOD.


1986 Dodge Ramcharger 440 2wd, Bracket Racer Under Construction
1998 Ram 2500 QuadCab, new daily driver.
2008 Honda Element
2014 Carry-On 7x14 Cargo Trailer
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756875
02/18/15 02:35 AM
02/18/15 02:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet Offline
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Canada
I agree with GTXMatt, your car should be well into the 14's. I ran against a 67 B body at Brainderd this summer with a stock low compression 440 (late 70's), stock intake/manifolds, 3.23's (maybe an RV cam, can't remember what the owner said) and he was running low 15's in 85 degree heat, something's definitely up with yours. As I said my shortbox with a relatively stock 440 (stock intake and tiny factory Holley carb) would blow the tires away with 3.23's (20 mph roll). As said start with a compression check and see where your at

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: GTX MATT] #1756876
02/18/15 03:38 AM
02/18/15 03:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

THe 440 RT was a 15 second car and the Hemi was a mid 14 second car stock.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_6706_dodge_hemi/photo_04.html
I have not dialed in the Eddy. Straight out of the box except float and idle circuit tune for max vacuum.

I have a bung on each side. Do I have to do a separate run for each side??




I see a two runs of 15.4 and 14.7 for the RT and the car had the Cleaner Air Package Lots of these cars ran well into the 14s. Don't settle for less!




Reading the article I caught this: "Both cars came with the standard 7.75 x 14 Red Streak tires, and running them this way with two aboard and test equipment netted best quarter-mile times of 15.4 seconds and 94 mph for the Magnum."

You're talking 4-500 lbs of extra weight here, or .4-5 seconds. With CAP.


Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: GTX MATT] #1756877
02/18/15 04:10 AM
02/18/15 04:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,198
Someplace you aren't
S
SomeCarGuy Offline
I Live Here
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Someplace you aren't
Another victim of the 750 Eddy carb. I dint know what size your Carter is but use a 750 version or the newer 800 avs. The rest of the low hanging fruit has been pointed out. My money is on that one part being the biggest culprit though.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756878
02/18/15 04:53 AM
02/18/15 04:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
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Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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Posts: 43,097
Bend,OR USA
Do you know if the cam was degreed in or did who ever installed it line up the dots? If it was degreed in where was the intake lobe center installed at in relation to top dead center ? If not degreed in it may be time to do that BB Mopars love having the cams advanced, I've done a bunch of cam and engine tuning, I've never seena BB mopar like the cam installed straight up, let alone installed 1 or more degrees retarded Most of the BB Mopar motors I've played with cam timing like the intake lobe timing like between 4 to 6 degrees advanced


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: Cab_Burge] #1756879
02/18/15 05:07 AM
02/18/15 05:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,180
Detroit, MI
CokeBottleKid Offline
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Detroit, MI
Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle? Check if secondaries are opening, check your full advance timing? Alot of the time the simple stuff is the culprit.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: CokeBottleKid] #1756880
02/18/15 08:43 AM
02/18/15 08:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 5,754
ohio
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ruderunner Offline
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ohio
I wouldn't throw money at this till you figure out what's wrong currently. You should have more punch than implied.
Low vacuum at idle concerns me. I would expect at least 16". No power at 5000 is also troubling.
If this was a ulti keyway timing set you may be way over advanced btdt and have the broken rockers to prove it.


Angry white pureblood male
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: GTX MATT] #1756881
02/18/15 09:02 AM
02/18/15 09:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,310
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Prospect, PA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

THe 440 RT was a 15 second car and the Hemi was a mid 14 second car stock.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_6706_dodge_hemi/photo_04.html
I have not dialed in the Eddy. Straight out of the box except float and idle circuit tune for max vacuum.

I have a bung on each side. Do I have to do a separate run for each side??




I see a two runs of 15.4 and 14.7 for the RT and the car had the Cleaner Air Package Lots of these cars ran well into the 14s. Don't settle for less!




Reading the article I caught this: "Both cars came with the standard 7.75 x 14 Red Streak tires, and running them this way with two aboard and test equipment netted best quarter-mile times of 15.4 seconds and 94 mph for the Magnum."

You're talking 4-500 lbs of extra weight here, or .4-5 seconds. With CAP.




You do need to look closely at those old track tests. What you describe was common. Actual test weight could be as high as 4300 to 4500 lb.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756882
02/18/15 09:28 AM
02/18/15 09:28 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,310
Prospect, PA
BSB67 Offline
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Prospect, PA
Quote:

Quote:

a little hard to help when we don't know the actual performance of the car. It might be exactly where it should be and your expectations are too high, or the thing is a total turd, we just can't tell.

My experience is when a guy does not know specifics like pistons and compression ratio, it is usually not good, i.e. very low. You should do a cylinder pressure test. Also, it would be helpful to know the cam.

There could be several reasons that it is under performing:
1) like Cab said, fuel delivery. It can rob power like no other, and unless you test it, you won't know.
2) Plugged or internal failure of muffler. This has happened to me twice. That is an instant loss of 30 + hp, but every thing seems fine.
3) Low compression.
4) Poor heads.
5) Poor tune


The factory intake is the biggest bottle neck on an already good running 440. It is done at 5000 and getting the motor to go past 5200 is a challenge.

A good set of 915s with some porting, good cam, decent compression ratio and a good tune will result is a car that runs very well, even with factory intake and the 4327 carb.




I have never raced the car but have driven a mid 14 second car and this is not close. I honestly think my Avalanche would give it a good run. Maybe 16s.

Mufflers new and good exhaust system.

Would I pull 20" vacuum with such low compression?




Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.

For fuel delivery, put a fuel pressure gauge in the fuel line near the carb. Run the line through the gap between the hood and cowl and attach the gauge to the wiper. Do a WOT run and watch the gauge. Report back. Or an O2 sensor

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: CokeBottleKid] #1756883
02/18/15 12:46 PM
02/18/15 12:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
pro stock
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Quote:

Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle? Check if secondaries are opening, check your full advance timing? Alot of the time the simple stuff is the culprit.



You are right on. It actually was worse before. I had my son hammer pedal to floor and went and adjusted throttle cable. Was not opening all of the way.
Timing seems right. Sent distributor to FBO for recurve. He cut out a bunch of mechanical advance. With dialback now I am at 14-16 degrees at idle and 34-36 all in at about 2500 rpm.
Once it warms up I will get the A/F in and check it as well as fuel pressure (stock mechanical pump).
Maybe my perception is off. I need to mark off a 1/4 mile and see what I get. Not a lot of roads in DC Metro to do this at.. Just seems like it makes a lot of noise and doesn't go anywhere. My 302 3 speed Bronco pulls as hard..

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: BSB67] #1756884
02/18/15 12:48 PM
02/18/15 12:48 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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MD
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

THe 440 RT was a 15 second car and the Hemi was a mid 14 second car stock.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_6706_dodge_hemi/photo_04.html
I have not dialed in the Eddy. Straight out of the box except float and idle circuit tune for max vacuum.

I have a bung on each side. Do I have to do a separate run for each side??




I see a two runs of 15.4 and 14.7 for the RT and the car had the Cleaner Air Package Lots of these cars ran well into the 14s. Don't settle for less!




Reading the article I caught this: "Both cars came with the standard 7.75 x 14 Red Streak tires, and running them this way with two aboard and test equipment netted best quarter-mile times of 15.4 seconds and 94 mph for the Magnum."

You're talking 4-500 lbs of extra weight here, or .4-5 seconds. With CAP.




You do need to look closely at those old track tests. What you describe was common. Actual test weight could be as high as 4300 to 4500 lb.



Aren't 15x7 steel wheels with 255s heavier then the original wheels? I admit traction may have been an issue with their times and with me not breaking loose times should be better.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: ruderunner] #1756885
02/18/15 12:52 PM
02/18/15 12:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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Quote:

I wouldn't throw money at this till you figure out what's wrong currently. You should have more punch than implied.
Low vacuum at idle concerns me. I would expect at least 16". No power at 5000 is also troubling.
If this was a ulti keyway timing set you may be way over advanced btdt and have the broken rockers to prove it.



I have 20-22" vacuum at idle. Rockers are all good. Just replaced all wires, plugs, cap rotor, and see no visible issues with rockers and springs. When I pulled old plugs with only 1000 miles on them (about 5 years old) the threads were coated with oil, but the tips all looked the right color. Slightly brownish and relatively clean. Since it was such a PITA, I replaced them anyway.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756886
02/18/15 01:01 PM
02/18/15 01:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 9,066
Eugene, Oregon
minivan Offline
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Eugene, Oregon
We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...

I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback..
Stock 040 over 440
Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..

8433302-vertpic5.jpg (191 downloads)
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: p d'ro] #1756887
02/18/15 01:27 PM
02/18/15 01:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
Quote:

Quote:

Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle?



You are right on. It actually was worse before. I had my son hammer pedal to floor and went and adjusted throttle cable. Was not opening all of the way.



That was it? How much better is it running now with just that 1 change?


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: RapidRobert] #1756888
02/18/15 01:40 PM
02/18/15 01:40 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Um have you done the simple stuff, like check if you're getting full throttle?



You are right on. It actually was worse before. I had my son hammer pedal to floor and went and adjusted throttle cable. Was not opening all of the way.



That was it? How much better is it running now with just that 1 change?



Robert, that got to me where I am now. Before it was really bad..

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: minivan] #1756889
02/18/15 01:42 PM
02/18/15 01:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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Quote:

We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...

I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback..
Stock 040 over 440
Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..



I feel your pain. You have my car's twin. 2.94 are good highway gears like mine. Thinking the first thing I will change..

8433354-RT1-Copy.jpg (177 downloads)
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: BSB67] #1756890
02/18/15 01:44 PM
02/18/15 01:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Quote:


Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.





I agree with this. Until you know what cylinder pressure you have, you won't know which way to go for improvements. I'd also ping the builder to see if he can provide cam specs. If it was built with stockish compression (the overbore lowers it, btw, if you use stock height pistons) and he put in a bigger performance cam, then you have a recipe for sluggish response due to low cylinder pressure.

If the cranking pressure is low, the best stealth approach may be to swap cams to one that build more cylinder pressure. more pressure = more power.

However, by all means, dial in the carb and timing. That is never a wasted effort.

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: TC@HP2] #1756891
02/18/15 01:50 PM
02/18/15 01:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 11,836
Florida
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mopar346 Offline
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Florida
Stock compression on a 67 HP440 is 10:1 isn't it? So even with it being a little lower from being bored it should have plenty enough compression to make good power. I would get the make/model of the piston used for the build. If all the parts check out then I would look a cam/valvetrain issues, something as simple as rocker arm adjustment being too tight can rub power and really make it lazy on the big end. You gotta know what is in your engine, how it works together and how it is set up.


Careful, your character's showing!
Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: TC@HP2] #1756892
02/18/15 02:07 PM
02/18/15 02:07 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,584
MD
p d'ro Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:


Measuring the cylinder pressure is what needs to be done.





I agree with this. Until you know what cylinder pressure you have, you won't know which way to go for improvements. I'd also ping the builder to see if he can provide cam specs. If it was built with stockish compression (the overbore lowers it, btw, if you use stock height pistons) and he put in a bigger performance cam, then you have a recipe for sluggish response due to low cylinder pressure.

If the cranking pressure is low, the best stealth approach may be to swap cams to one that build more cylinder pressure. more pressure = more power.

However, by all means, dial in the carb and timing. That is never a wasted effort.




Cam:

Brand:COMP Cams
Manufacturer's Part Number:SK21-222-4
Part Type:Camshaft Kits
Product Line:COMP Cams Xtreme Energy Cam and Lifter Kits
Summit Racing Part Number:CCA-SK21-222-4

UPC:036584046622
Cam Style:Hydraulic flat tappet
Basic Operating RPM Range:1,300-5,600
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift:218
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift:224
Duration at 050 inch Lift:218 int./224 exh.
Advertised Intake Duration:262
Advertised Exhaust Duration:270
Advertised Duration:262 int./270 exh.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.462 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.470 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.462 int./0.470 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):110
Camshaft Gear Attachment:1-bolt
Grind Number:CRB XE262H-10

Re: Bang for Buck 440 Motor Mods Stockish 67 [Re: minivan] #1756893
02/18/15 02:15 PM
02/18/15 02:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,159
CT
GTX MATT Offline
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GTX MATT  Offline
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Posts: 5,159
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Quote:

We probably have similar builds and I am not impressed with my car either.. While it sounds like my car runs better than yours, still not very impressive in the "seat of the pants" test.. I think biggest problem is my 2.94 rear gears, as I just cruise the car, not interested in racing it...

I did not check cam gearing or if my original damper timing mark has slipped, so I can't complain, just giving you some feedback..
Stock 040 over 440
Original carb, exhausts, 915 heads, forged pistons, heads milled to appx 9.5-1 ( CC,d) 375 hp stock ( new) cam,..




2.94s can really kill a stock setup and make it feel piggy. Its funny, if you put them behind a radical engine it will make it harder/more tempermental to drive, but it will still pour on power and go. Stock stuff really feels better with some gear. I think the most impressed I've ever been with a true stock car was a 383 Road Runner with 4.10s and a 4 speed.

And don't forget most of these cars came with 2.94s and 3.23s came with something like F70-14s which are only around 26.5 inches tall.

To the OP I'm hesitant to say this, but I honestly think 20" of vacuum is a little high for that cam. I really wouldn't be surprised if that cam is not in the engine. Does it have a little gallop at idle or is it really smooth? Again though, it should still fry the tires.

Last edited by GTX MATT; 02/18/15 02:18 PM.

Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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