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Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: xyxxjx] #1752657
02/13/15 01:41 PM
02/13/15 01:41 PM
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Posts: 5,395
Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Pikes Peak Country
Quote:


I might have to do this in a couple of stages since the budget right now probably is in the 1000$, range give take a bit (not including tires and rims here) I'll have more $ in a few months. So it sounds like the list might go something like this:

Basic check of bushings ball joints etc.
Sways
shocks
upper control arm or moog offset
wheels
alignment (wouldn't it make sense to do the alignment last here?)
then when i get a bit more $ torsion bars and steering box




Stages are okay. A lot of us do it that way. Firm Feel and Hotchkis offer parts in pieces so you can do the updates in stages.

The reason why I suggest an alignment first is so you can discover where you are at. The change from original alignment specs to the suggested specs can make a HUGE difference in feel. You may find that once you get this corrected, the feel you want falls in line with your expectations and you don't need to pursue further hardware changes. Additionally, the extra caster will increase steering effort which will make the over-assist of the steering box less annoying which may influence your decision to change the steering box. Plus, unless you do alter the upper control arms, you don't need alignments after shock, sway bar, or wheel/tire changes so that alignment will be good for a quite while, depending on how the budget lines up of course.

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: roe] #1752658
02/13/15 01:47 PM
02/13/15 01:47 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,344
Central TX
roe Offline
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Oh and I went from no sway bar to just a stock front sway bar and the improvement was night and day. You dont realize how much body roll you have until its not there anymore. Corners and curves with speed were sooooooo much better.



1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: roe] #1752659
02/13/15 02:30 PM
02/13/15 02:30 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 518
Georgia
S
Steve Bryant Offline
mopar
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Georgia
Agreed with the sway bar. I added a stock sized front sway bar and it dramatically changed the overall feel in both corners and even in simple turns. That was overall the biggest bang for my buck once I had resolved the front end problems.

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: autoxcuda] #1752660
02/14/15 07:02 AM
02/14/15 07:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 206
Los Angeles CA
xyxxjx Offline OP
enthusiast
xyxxjx  Offline OP
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Los Angeles CA
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Steering box...need something with more road feel
Upper Control Arms....allow to align with more caster
Shocks...Something nice, Bilstein
Torsion Bars...larger size
might think about swaybars front and rear too.




For best bang for your buck, do the last thing on that list first. And first thing last.

On a 73 Charger you can run Moog offset p/n 7103 bushing installed for most caster (do not used instruction in box/kit). Just put those in the factory upper control arms and it will be cheaper that tubular upper control arms.




Is that your car in the apex in your avatar picture? That looks like the handling i like.




Near it.

In that picture, it's got 195 WR (wheel rate) torsion bars, F/R sway bar, kyb's, moog offset bushing with stock UCA's. Now has 248 WR T-bars, Bilstiens, Hotchkis system.

Your Charger is around 600 lbs heavier. I'd start with 1.06" Firm Feel T-bars or larger.

If you are sticking with 15" rims, research fitting 275/50/15 tires on 15x9 rims with 4.5" backspacing. I don't know if they would fit, but the front of a 71-74 charger can take some wide tires.

Almost all 15" tires stink. All that are reasonably priced stink.

Think about 16" or 17" tires. The better tires in those diameters will outperform even much wider 15" low performance tires.




I'm not hell bend on 15". What tires would you recommend keeping in mind that i want as wide as possible front and rear and as far out as possible without scrubbing? Remember the wide look is also important to me not just performance.


1973 Dodge Charger SE 400 automatic transmission. Curb weight: 3800 lbs. All stock so far. Goal: Reliable everday driveable warmed up 400 as close to 400hp as possible, then a 470 stroker if need be. Don't protect a feminist when the collapse comes!
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: xyxxjx] #1752661
02/14/15 03:50 PM
02/14/15 03:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 798
WA
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pro451bee Offline
super stock
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Posts: 798
WA
17X9 or 18X9 all around , 0 offset rims , Year one has nice one in 17 inch, 255 50 17 tires all around look nice on the 9" rims and are around 27" tall for the larger car like your charger.I run a 17X9 all around on my 69 Bee , great ride and tracking/road feel ,not rough at all.A 275 45 17 would be a great size for a muscle car rear but no one makes one.Some 255 50s are close in profile on the 9" wide rim.275 40 17 look good on the 9" wide but are a little short at 25.7" tall.18 inch rims may have more size choices but price and weight goes up too.

8429013-S6300297#2.JPG (302 downloads)
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: pro451bee] #1752662
02/14/15 03:53 PM
02/14/15 03:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 798
WA
P
pro451bee Offline
super stock
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WA
Another shot

8429015-S6300761#3.JPG (372 downloads)
Last edited by pro451bee; 02/14/15 03:55 PM.
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: TC@HP2] #1752663
02/14/15 11:15 PM
02/14/15 11:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 206
Los Angeles CA
xyxxjx Offline OP
enthusiast
xyxxjx  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 206
Los Angeles CA
Quote:

Quote:


I might have to do this in a couple of stages since the budget right now probably is in the 1000$, range give take a bit (not including tires and rims here) I'll have more $ in a few months. So it sounds like the list might go something like this:

Basic check of bushings ball joints etc.
Sways
shocks
upper control arm or moog offset
wheels
alignment (wouldn't it make sense to do the alignment last here?)
then when i get a bit more $ torsion bars and steering box




Stages are okay. A lot of us do it that way. Firm Feel and Hotchkis offer parts in pieces so you can do the updates in stages.

The reason why I suggest an alignment first is so you can discover where you are at. The change from original alignment specs to the suggested specs can make a HUGE difference in feel. You may find that once you get this corrected, the feel you want falls in line with your expectations and you don't need to pursue further hardware changes. Additionally, the extra caster will increase steering effort which will make the over-assist of the steering box less annoying which may influence your decision to change the steering box. Plus, unless you do alter the upper control arms, you don't need alignments after shock, sway bar, or wheel/tire changes so that alignment will be good for a quite while, depending on how the budget lines up of course.




I see what you mean but wouldn't I have to change the upper control arms to get more positive caster?


1973 Dodge Charger SE 400 automatic transmission. Curb weight: 3800 lbs. All stock so far. Goal: Reliable everday driveable warmed up 400 as close to 400hp as possible, then a 470 stroker if need be. Don't protect a feminist when the collapse comes!
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: xyxxjx] #1752664
02/15/15 02:52 AM
02/15/15 02:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,485
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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Posts: 27,485
So Cal
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I might have to do this in a couple of stages since the budget right now probably is in the 1000$, range give take a bit (not including tires and rims here) I'll have more $ in a few months. So it sounds like the list might go something like this:

Basic check of bushings ball joints etc.
Sways
shocks
upper control arm or moog offset
wheels
alignment (wouldn't it make sense to do the alignment last here?)
then when i get a bit more $ torsion bars and steering box




Stages are okay. A lot of us do it that way. Firm Feel and Hotchkis offer parts in pieces so you can do the updates in stages.

The reason why I suggest an alignment first is so you can discover where you are at. The change from original alignment specs to the suggested specs can make a HUGE difference in feel. You may find that once you get this corrected, the feel you want falls in line with your expectations and you don't need to pursue further hardware changes. Additionally, the extra caster will increase steering effort which will make the over-assist of the steering box less annoying which may influence your decision to change the steering box. Plus, unless you do alter the upper control arms, you don't need alignments after shock, sway bar, or wheel/tire changes so that alignment will be good for a quite while, depending on how the budget lines up of course.




I see what you mean but wouldn't I have to change the upper control arms to get more positive caster?




Not always. Sometimes you can get to 2-3 degrees positive caster with stock stuff. But more likely and could get 3-5 deg positive with Moog 7103 bushings installed per diagram I showed.

Got to get it to an good alignment shop that does older car and performance stuff.

Bagge & Son on Washington across from MGM is the place my family gets older and new car alignments for last 50+ years. They understand the performance alignment deal. That's where I've got performance alignments on my Barracuda and sent others to.

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: xyxxjx] #1752665
02/15/15 02:59 AM
02/15/15 02:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,948
Spokane Valley, WA
Big Bad Bee Offline
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Big Bad Bee  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 10,948
Spokane Valley, WA
According to Rick Ehrenberg at Mopar Action Magazine, the single most valuable suspension/handling upgrade is a good set of performance wheels and tires. IIRC, he stated when outlining the build of the Green Brick Valiant, that they represent 80% of the performance upgrade on modern car sport suspension. After owning a Shadow ES Turbo, a Shelby Daytona VNT and a Neon ACR and having messed with multiple sets of tires on each, I can absolutely say that I agree. If I were attempting to get my car to handle, I'd start there, then shocks, then anti sway bars then torsion bars.


I’m listening.
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: Big Bad Bee] #1752666
02/15/15 04:01 AM
02/15/15 04:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,485
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
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autoxcuda  Offline
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Posts: 27,485
So Cal
Quote:

According to Rick Ehrenberg at Mopar Action Magazine, the single most valuable suspension/handling upgrade is a good set of performance wheels and tires. IIRC, he stated when outlining the build of the Green Brick Valiant, that they represent 80% of the performance upgrade on modern car sport suspension. After owning a Shadow ES Turbo, a Shelby Daytona VNT and a Neon ACR and having messed with multiple sets of tires on each, I can absolutely say that I agree. If I were attempting to get my car to handle, I'd start there, then shocks, then anti sway bars then torsion bars.




True to some degree. I thought he was fixed on 15" tires at first, but that seems not the case. But good tires and rims are probably going to be $400 a corner, $1600. Sway bars, T-bars, and UCA bushings will be half that.

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: autoxcuda] #1752667
02/15/15 04:33 AM
02/15/15 04:33 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 206
Los Angeles CA
xyxxjx Offline OP
enthusiast
xyxxjx  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 206
Los Angeles CA
Quote:

Quote:

According to Rick Ehrenberg at Mopar Action Magazine, the single most valuable suspension/handling upgrade is a good set of performance wheels and tires. IIRC, he stated when outlining the build of the Green Brick Valiant, that they represent 80% of the performance upgrade on modern car sport suspension. After owning a Shadow ES Turbo, a Shelby Daytona VNT and a Neon ACR and having messed with multiple sets of tires on each, I can absolutely say that I agree. If I were attempting to get my car to handle, I'd start there, then shocks, then anti sway bars then torsion bars.




True to some degree. I thought he was fixed on 15" tires at first, but that seems not the case. But good tires and rims are probably going to be $400 a corner, $1600. Sway bars, T-bars, and UCA bushings will be half that.




I really like the look of high sidewalls for older cars like 295/50/15. I think I'm looking for a rim/tire combination that strikes a balance between "good looks" and performance. Remember this is not a track car but a street car. how tall would you say the sidewall could be to achieve this?


1973 Dodge Charger SE 400 automatic transmission. Curb weight: 3800 lbs. All stock so far. Goal: Reliable everday driveable warmed up 400 as close to 400hp as possible, then a 470 stroker if need be. Don't protect a feminist when the collapse comes!
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: xyxxjx] #1752668
02/15/15 04:57 AM
02/15/15 04:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,485
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,485
So Cal
Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

According to Rick Ehrenberg at Mopar Action Magazine, the single most valuable suspension/handling upgrade is a good set of performance wheels and tires. IIRC, he stated when outlining the build of the Green Brick Valiant, that they represent 80% of the performance upgrade on modern car sport suspension. After owning a Shadow ES Turbo, a Shelby Daytona VNT and a Neon ACR and having messed with multiple sets of tires on each, I can absolutely say that I agree. If I were attempting to get my car to handle, I'd start there, then shocks, then anti sway bars then torsion bars.




True to some degree. I thought he was fixed on 15" tires at first, but that seems not the case. But good tires and rims are probably going to be $400 a corner, $1600. Sway bars, T-bars, and UCA bushings will be half that.




I really like the look of high sidewalls for older cars like 295/50/15. I think I'm looking for a rim/tire combination that strikes a balance between "good looks" and performance. Remember this is not a track car but a street car. how tall would you say the sidewall could be to achieve this?




295/50/15 is a pretty thick sidewall. But if it's what you want, run it. Not optimum, but it is what it is. Don't know how those fit on the rear of a 71-74 Charger. Rand in the valley with all the 71 Chargers would know.

I would research a 265/50/15 in front on a 15x8 with 4.5" backspace.

And just run F/R sway bars and 1.06 Firm Feel T-bars and decent alignment. You will definitely feel a difference with those three things for street handling. Those 1.06" are a little higher rate than 1.00" on 62-72 B-body T-bars. But 1.00" T-bars on a 73-79 B-Body are softer than 1.00" T-bar on a 62-72 B-body.

When you save some more money add shocks like Bilstien RCD if budget allows or KYB.

Last edited by autoxcuda; 02/15/15 04:53 PM.
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: autoxcuda] #1752669
02/15/15 08:00 AM
02/15/15 08:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
Right here
HP2 Offline
mopar
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
Right here
I have run BFG's 295/50/15 on my 72 Charger with lots of space left. i even have the same tires on my 70 GTX wich have less room. I think I have 5.5" backspace on both cars.
Can I adapt the above mentioned formula on a 70 Cuda, are the geometry issues the same as on a late b-body?


70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd
70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT
71 Duster 340
71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727
72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip
78 Warlock in beautiful patina
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: HP2] #1752670
02/15/15 12:32 PM
02/15/15 12:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,320
Lees Summit, MO
BrianT Offline
pro stock
BrianT  Offline
pro stock

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,320
Lees Summit, MO
My car isn't built for performance driving and it's an A body, but the biggest single improvement I've made so far was welding in a simple set of sub frame connectors. They are cheap and I had the local muffler shop weld them in. It really stiffened up my chassis and took away all of the flexing that I felt going over bumps and uneven surfaces. Total cost was less than $200.


1970 Duster 340 clone
Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: HP2] #1752671
02/15/15 04:59 PM
02/15/15 04:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,485
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
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Quote:

I have run BFG's 295/50/15 on my 72 Charger with lots of space left. i even have the same tires on my 70 GTX wich have less room. I think I have 5.5" backspace on both cars.
Can I adapt the above mentioned formula on a 70 Cuda, are the geometry issues the same as on a late b-body?




The tire fitment will be different on a 70 Cuda. But all else is the same.

What geometry issues were mentioned?

Just try to get the alignment to 2-3 degree positive camber. More likely to get that with the offset bushings. If you have it aligned with stock parts for ~$100 and can't get 2-3 degrees of positive caster, you'll have to go back home, put in the offset bushings or tubular upper control arms. THEN get another ~$100 alignment.

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: HP2] #1752672
02/15/15 05:03 PM
02/15/15 05:03 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,485
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
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Posts: 27,485
So Cal
Quote:

I have run BFG's 295/50/15 on my 72 Charger with lots of space left. i even have the same tires on my 70 GTX wich have less room. I think I have 5.5" backspace on both cars. . ...




I assume that's in the rear. What's space on inside or outside on the 72 Charger? Is the car lowered, stock, or raised in the rear?

Have you tried wide tires in the front? If so, what has worked and how much clearance?

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: BrianT] #1752673
02/15/15 06:41 PM
02/15/15 06:41 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 413
northeast ohio
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mkdart Offline
mopar
mkdart  Offline
mopar
M

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 413
northeast ohio
I'm with Brian,Before I installed frame connectors
and went over railroad tracks.The car felt like I
was on raft floating down the river.It fixed that.
Mike

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: mkdart] #1752674
02/15/15 06:55 PM
02/15/15 06:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,715
Wichita
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GY3 Offline
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Wichita
Subframe connectors, as said, make a WORLD of difference!

I had them put in for a grand total of $150.00 by a really good fabricator and the difference was amazing!

A good foundation is where you start, IMO.

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: GY3] #1752675
02/15/15 07:58 PM
02/15/15 07:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,485
So Cal
autoxcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
autoxcuda  Offline
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So Cal
Original poster has 73 Charger with Isolated K-member front frame. So solid isolators would come first before Subframe connectors.

Here is the 73-79 Iso K-member with isolators replaced with aluminum ones

Re: list of "Bang for the buck" suspension upgrades [Re: HP2] #1752676
02/15/15 08:30 PM
02/15/15 08:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 206
Los Angeles CA
xyxxjx Offline OP
enthusiast
xyxxjx  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 206
Los Angeles CA
Quote:

I have run BFG's 295/50/15 on my 72 Charger with lots of space left. i even have the same tires on my 70 GTX wich have less room. I think I have 5.5" backspace on both cars.
Can I adapt the above mentioned formula on a 70 Cuda, are the geometry issues the same as on a late b-body?




mine is a 73 charger don't know if there is a differences. I was told on a forum I could run 295/50/15 on 10" wheels, but would be nice with a few more opinions. I dont know what backspacing to get. You say you have 5.5" how far out is the outside of the tire and what's the width of your wheel?


1973 Dodge Charger SE 400 automatic transmission. Curb weight: 3800 lbs. All stock so far. Goal: Reliable everday driveable warmed up 400 as close to 400hp as possible, then a 470 stroker if need be. Don't protect a feminist when the collapse comes!
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