|
Budget small block EFI
#1702000
11/22/14 09:41 PM
11/22/14 09:41 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,269
Slantytown
DUFFMAN
OP
Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|
OP
Ask And Ye Shall Receive
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,269
Slantytown
|
For years I've been tossing around the idea of converting my 1972 Coronet driver to EFI. Obviously the car isn't worth a ton of money so I cringe at the idea of spending thousands on an aftermarket system. It also is only packing a 318 with no huge performance mods, it's just a car I enjoy driving. So to make it more reliable, possibly get better mpg, and just to see if I can do it, I've thought about doing an inexpensive EFI using late LA throttle body injection parts from a junkyard. I would love to do multi-port, but changing to Magnum heads is cost prohibitive.
So here's the idea, I start with a throttle body and intake from a junkyard. I haven't looked closely at one but I would suspect that most of the sensors should be contained there; coolant temp, air charge temp, and throttle position. I'm not sure about the MAP, but if it's like the 80's FWD it's remote mounted. I could take the engine harness as a start for the wiring.
I would imagine I would need to get the timing cover and crank pulley for the crank position sensor.
Before removing the carb I could take it to an exhaust shop and have an O2 bung welded in.
Everything could be run by a Megasquirt controller.
I'm not sure what to do about the fuel pump. I haven't been able to find any info on the pressure and flow requirements. I would like to mount it in the tank so I don't have to run a return fuel line and make for a cleaner installation. I'm not sure if anyone offers an fuel pump that fits in the stock b-body tank.
What else am I missing? Thinking about starting to gather parts for spring.
No longer taking $h!t from anyone!
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DUFFMAN]
#1702001
11/22/14 09:49 PM
11/22/14 09:49 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,783
Corpus Christi, TX
shanker
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,783
Corpus Christi, TX
|
I suspect, that you're one of MANY people who would LOVE to do the same to their drivers that have at most, very mild performance mods...
I for one have always wanted a daily driver mopar muscle car, with Power Windows, Cruise Control, A/C, EFI, bump the key and go reliability, 16-22mpg range, and as quiet on the inside as a modern vehicle (such as a charger)...
ideally this car would be an A-Body....
The Federal Government has not yet learned that you cannot legislate morality
1970 Coronet R/T FF4/FF8/V85/V1G 440/Auto/3.23
1970 Coronet R/T FK5/FK5/V8W/V1W 440/Auto/3.55
1970 Super Bee TX9/TX9/V8W/N96 383/Auto/3.91
1975 Duster 360 VS29L5 Daily Driver
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: shanker]
#1702002
11/22/14 09:53 PM
11/22/14 09:53 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,269
Slantytown
DUFFMAN
OP
Ask And Ye Shall Receive
|
OP
Ask And Ye Shall Receive
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 11,269
Slantytown
|
I'm not big on AC, but power locks and power windows are on my list. Hoping one day to find the window regulators reasonably priced since they'd be out of a 4 door anyway. I'm not sure if they are the same for 2 and 4 door.
No longer taking $h!t from anyone!
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DUFFMAN]
#1702004
11/23/14 02:02 AM
11/23/14 02:02 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
|
There are several different ways to get it done. Having done one conversion, I'll give you my opinion on how to do it on the cheap. First, if you are going to salvage a stock LA TBI setup, get one from a 360. Bigger throttle body and more power potential. They were never set up for power at all, so you need every advantage you can get. Next I wouldn't worry about sensors on the Dodge, for MS you are better to use the GM parts which can be scabbed off most any junkyard rig. Having a wiring harness will be helpful, but you can also get the connectors with your sensors and build your own. Here's where I would start: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/micro...ness-p-509.htmlFor $369 you get a complete engine management system WITH an 8' harness. Solder the sensor connectors on and a few other connections and you are hooked up. This is a perfect setup because it is designed to run 2 low-z injectors like come in a throttle body. Personally I would start with fuel only and not try and control timing right out of the gate. You can use your standard distributor, and let it control timing for now. When and if you are ever ready to let MS do it, then you can lock it out at a later day. You should never need a cam/crank sensor unless you plan on running sequential; the distributor will do just fine. If you choose to do full timing control, you will need a 7 pin GM HEI module. Definitely have the o2 bung installed first. For $105 I would use this: http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-sensor for Wideband o2. It's a down and dirty no-frills lambda sensor. You will need one if you ever plan on getting it fully tuned in. Add his $50 gauge and you can watch it on the fly after it's tuned without your laptop. Regarding the fuel pump, you will need a return line. There's no way to run it returnless with TBI. I would get an inline Walbro, like the GSL392. http://www.amazon.com/Walbro-GSL-392-In-Line-Pressure-Installation/dp/B0051UH656Some older Ford trucks had an inline pump, so that's a possible junkyard shopping item too. The throttle body has a regulator built in, and it runs at 14PSI. The pump won't care what pressure it runs since it's regulated. Any excess fuel dumps back to the tank. An 88 Ramcharger TBI uses the same pump as a 92 MPI which runs at 43PSI. Here's another option for fuel return: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-65...1wKPRoCBu7w_wcBYou should be able to get it running for under $700 with some creative parts shopping and junkyard hopping. Hope that helps answer some of your questions!
Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: herkamer]
#1702005
11/23/14 03:25 AM
11/23/14 03:25 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
denfireguy
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,822
Colorado
|
Quote:
There are several different ways to get it done. Having done one conversion, I'll give you my opinion on how to do it on the cheap.
First, if you are going to salvage a stock LA TBI setup, get one from a 360. Bigger throttle body and more power potential. They were never set up for power at all, so you need every advantage you can get. Next I wouldn't worry about sensors on the Dodge, for MS you are better to use the GM parts which can be scabbed off most any junkyard rig. Having a wiring harness will be helpful, but you can also get the connectors with your sensors and build your own.
Here's where I would start: http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/micro...ness-p-509.html
For $369 you get a complete engine management system WITH an 8' harness. Solder the sensor connectors on and a few other connections and you are hooked up. This is a perfect setup because it is designed to run 2 low-z injectors like come in a throttle body.
Personally I would start with fuel only and not try and control timing right out of the gate. You can use your standard distributor, and let it control timing for now. When and if you are ever ready to let MS do it, then you can lock it out at a later day. You should never need a cam/crank sensor unless you plan on running sequential; the distributor will do just fine. If you choose to do full timing control, you will need a 7 pin GM HEI module.
Definitely have the o2 bung installed first. For $105 I would use this: http://www.14point7.com/products/spartan-lambda-sensor for Wideband o2. It's a down and dirty no-frills lambda sensor. You will need one if you ever plan on getting it fully tuned in. Add his $50 gauge and you can watch it on the fly after it's tuned without your laptop.
Regarding the fuel pump, you will need a return line. There's no way to run it returnless with TBI. I would get an inline Walbro, like the GSL392. http://www.amazon.com/Walbro-GSL-392-In-Line-Pressure-Installation/dp/B0051UH656
Some older Ford trucks had an inline pump, so that's a possible junkyard shopping item too. The throttle body has a regulator built in, and it runs at 14PSI. The pump won't care what pressure it runs since it's regulated. Any excess fuel dumps back to the tank. An 88 Ramcharger TBI uses the same pump as a 92 MPI which runs at 43PSI. Here's another option for fuel return: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-65...1wKPRoCBu7w_wcB
You should be able to get it running for under $700 with some creative parts shopping and junkyard hopping. Hope that helps answer some of your questions!
I am going to be doing about the same thing as Matt. Only difference is using the Fast EFI throttle body (pricey at 800 bucks) on my current Edelbrock intake replacing the 1406 carb. When I do get around to doing timing, put in one of the dreaded Lean Burn distributors since it has no mechanical timing advance. Then use the MegaSquirt to do the timing and fuel.
I already get around 19 to 21 mpg on the Cuda if I keep the foot out. I do not expect to gain anything there but have a closed loop system that does not have to be tuned up four times a year.
Craig
Last edited by denfireguy; 11/23/14 03:26 AM.
2014 Ram 1500 Laramie, 73 Cuda
Previous mopars: 62 Valiant, 65 Fury III, 68 Fury III, 72 Satellite, 74 Satellite, 89 Acclaim, 98 Caravan, 2003 Durango
Only previous Non-Mopar: Schwinn Tornado
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: plazomat]
#1702007
11/23/14 01:01 PM
11/23/14 01:01 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,878
Detroit, MI
GetAwayDriver
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,878
Detroit, MI
|
I bought a used Projection kit on Ebay 5+ years ago for around $300. It was my second go-around with the Projection system. Here are my pros/cons: You can install this in one day. Slightly more complicated than swaping from points to Mopar electronic ignition. Great way to get your feet wet with EFI. Inexpensive. No 02 sensor required. Easy to tune. Twist key-and-go. Same TB/Injectors as pre-Magnum trucks. Looks stock. Use existing vent lines as fuel returns. No measurable improvement in power/mileage over well-tuned carb. Questionable Holley quality-control. No O2 sensor. That said, I don't even know if you can find these kits anymore. It's 90s tech but then again, our cars are 70s tech. The only reason I installed it was so I could use a remote car starter. (It was fun firing this thing up in a parking lot and freaking people out.) I drove it for a couple years and sold it with the system still intact. Here are a few pics:  Inline-pump:  Air Cleaner lid from an 80's EFI Imperial:  I put the tuning box (and remote starter wiring) in the C-body's super-awesome center mounted glove box. (Yes the car had orange shag carpet):  
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: herkamer]
#1702008
11/23/14 01:07 PM
11/23/14 01:07 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
|
Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
|
Herk, I've heard of a guys using the 454 TBI systems due to the larger bore and injectors.
Have you looked into the pros/cons of that setup?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: plazomat]
#1702009
11/23/14 02:13 PM
11/23/14 02:13 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
|
Quote:
I am sure that the microsquirt will not drive Mopar TBI injectors directly or not last very long doing it. Mopar low impedance is much lower than the gm stuff you can use the resistors but they pose there own problems.
If you wanna go megasquirt and TBI then the older v3.57 may be your best bet for not much more$.
Microsquirt will hold up just fine. Mopar and GM used many of the same TBI injectors over the years. From the DIYautotune page I posted:
Quote:
1.The fuel injector drives will max out at 5 amps each, enough to drive one low-impedance (or 4 high-impedance) injector per bank.
That being said, I prefer not to mess with the PWM tuning. I started out that way, and ended up going with this: http://www.jbperf.com/p&h_board/
Like the old Ronco infrared oven, "set it and forget it". You would be over $500 for an assembled v3.57 MS2 and the matching harness. Maybe that's not a budget buster, but I'm trying to get it as down and dirty as possible. Building the board yourself is an option, but then you are into the cost of the stim as well.
Quote:
Herk, I've heard of a guys using the 454 TBI systems due to the larger bore and injectors.
I forgot to put this in my last post. This is exactly what I have on mine. Holley built the 670CFM throttle body that will support around 275HP on the early 90's Chevy 454 trucks. They adapted it to a square bore manifold, added a dumb computer with 2 fuel maps and called it Pro-Jection. I found a used Pro-Jection on Craigslist for $200, minus the fuel pump. Since I'm using the V3 board, it helped to have a donor harness to start with. My body style had a model with the later in-tank pump so that was an easy swap. I probably don't have even $700 into my conversion including the $189 Innovate LC-1 Wideband. A bigger motor would definitely benefit from the later Pro-Jection 4 throttle bodies, but then you also would have to go with the P&H board to drive those 4 injectors. This setup is plenty even for a slightly worked over 360.
Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: bbtrux]
#1702012
11/24/14 12:11 AM
11/24/14 12:11 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
|
Quote:
Why would you not simply install a magnum? Cheapest,easiest.only thing you may need is the aftermarket lower profile intake for hood clearance.why try an expensive long winded hodgepodge of other crap?
Because we like to take chicken crap and turn it into chicken soup...
He asked how to do it on a budget without changing to Magnum. That has it's own issues, such as trying to hack in a crank sensor, new flexplate and torque converter. Beside the point; even if he goes Megasquirt he could change to Magnum heads and intake, run it in batch mode with only a top end and small wiring change. We are cheap, that is the cheapest way. Been there and done it.
Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: DUFFMAN]
#1702015
11/24/14 07:51 PM
11/24/14 07:51 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,783
Corpus Christi, TX
shanker
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,783
Corpus Christi, TX
|
Quote:
Quote:
Why would you not simply install a magnum? Cheapest,easiest.only thing you may need is the aftermarket lower profile intake for hood clearance.why try an expensive long winded hodgepodge of other crap?
First of, a complete engine replacement would be a budget build, second, the 318 I have in the car only has about 2000-3000 miles on the rebuild so it would be a waste to just toss it and rebuild a Magnum in it's place.
I've thought about a Magnum intake for the MPI, but that would require head replacement which adds cost, along with a whole host of other expenses.
The challenge is to see how inexpensively it can be done.
years ago there was a group of guys here who were renting/forwarding on a jig to allow installing magnum intakes on LA heads.. not sure what happened to it.
The Federal Government has not yet learned that you cannot legislate morality
1970 Coronet R/T FF4/FF8/V85/V1G 440/Auto/3.23
1970 Coronet R/T FK5/FK5/V8W/V1W 440/Auto/3.55
1970 Super Bee TX9/TX9/V8W/N96 383/Auto/3.91
1975 Duster 360 VS29L5 Daily Driver
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: shanker]
#1702016
11/25/14 12:01 AM
11/25/14 12:01 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 643
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
plazomat
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 643
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
|
Duffman,
Take a look at Speeduino..you can't be in that big a hurry.
I bought a $100 running chevy 350 TBI motor. It supplied all the sensors, HEI components, wiring harness, Throttle body and ECM.
My Arduino Mega 2560 was less than $30 ebay.
Ford pickup external fuel pump was $50 ebay.
Return style sender for 69B tank was $50 rock auto.
Mods to ECM were free - cause I can read a schematic and solder. Tuner studio for tuning - free unless you want Autotune feature then its like $60...and it will do Megasquirt, Rusefi, DIYEFI as well.
$310 so far...but a lot of time invested...but its all open source, no closed commercial code or tunes - and really easy to mod software.
I am going to document the whole install once it starts hopefully next spring.
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: plazomat]
#1702017
11/25/14 01:10 AM
11/25/14 01:10 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Fury Fan
master
|
master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
|
You have a good plan, keep researching. The GM TBI is on my list of favorite low-buck JY retrofit pieces.
The GM TBI is far and away the best choice as far as parts, tweakability, and internet info availability. The Dodge one, from most everythign I've read, generally works well while providing lackluster performance and MPG. The aftermarket EFI ECUs overwhelmingly favor GM sensors, too. Many aftermarket ECUs can re-cal to other sensors, but hey, that's one more detail you'd have to remember to do.
There are adapter plates out there to put a GM TB on either an open-plenum square or spreadbore manifold (where it mounts rearward); will not fit on a 2V as the TB bores are too far apart. Small TB is like 1 11/16" bores, 454 is 2". Look at adapters by Trans-Dapt. Either TB is sufficient for a mild 318.
On 454 TBs there is an early style and a late style. Early has larger injectors @ like 12-14 psi, later one has 'std' injectors running at 30psi. Later one reportedly has improvemtns in the TB for better idle, but I don't remember details. You can tell them apart by looking at the air passages in the bottom.
Teh FPR (fuel pressure regulator) is easily tweakable to be adjustable, or you can gut it and mount an aftermarket one in your return line. I have read that some guys get better MPG by running 4.3 injectors at higher pressure to get teh required flow. Be aware that doubling pressure does not double flow - there is a formula you will need to find to calculate (there's a square root involved).
Some GM TB vehicles have hard metal fuel lines, some are braided hose. I had good luck finding braided and having a hyd-hose shop put JIC fittings on the end (that's AN to you hotrodders, a 37° flare).
Teh GM TBI fits a 5 1/8" aircleaner, same as an Eddy/AVS/Thermoquad. So that helps (if you have an aircleaner like that, I guess).
I have *a bunch* of GM TBI parts in a tote in the basement (probably 6-8 TBs in there and a bunch of odds-ends) so send me a PM if you want some cheap stuff. Although getting somethign 'fresh' at a JY might suit you better.
|
|
|
Re: Budget small block EFI
[Re: dogdays]
#1702019
11/25/14 02:30 PM
11/25/14 02:30 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
herkamer
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,305
Lakewood, Colorado
|
Good info about stock GM TBI parts: http://www.dynamicefi.com/TBI_Fueling.phpTrue, a 318 would never need a 454 TB but if you have access at the right price, there is no reason not to use it. I'd rather have the capability to grow rather than be limited. This isn't carburation, you can command the same amount of fuel needed whether it has a 60 or 85lb/hr injector. In this case, bigger doesn't hurt anything at all.
Matt
69 Dart Swinger 340
83 W350, Megasquirted with 46RH
Old news: 72 Demon street/race mobile
Latest: 70 Duster backhalf car
and even more
|
|
|
|
|
