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Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: MadMopars] #1685550
10/16/14 12:18 PM
10/16/14 12:18 PM
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here is my theory, at my level it is not significant enough to make a big difference. if some of you think it is give us some facts. like HP difference and dyno info/ life of the motor etc. I haven't seen anyone offering anything but unproven opinion. and yes I do visually check contact points through the motion but I have never worried about if the geometry is off a little. I am sure at high levels it becomes more crucial.




Just curious, in your opinion is .025 net lift loss significant? I ask because that's what I've lost by changing my geometry.

I also gain and or lose over 400 useable RPM in my shift points by changing the geometry.

Still not to worry about?


no because I am not worried about a few HP, like I said I am a bracket racer and as long is it doesn't have a reliability issue I could care less. tell me how much power you lost?

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: Quicktree] #1685551
10/16/14 12:33 PM
10/16/14 12:33 PM
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here is my theory, at my level it is not significant enough to make a big difference. if some of you think it is give us some facts. like HP difference and dyno info/ life of the motor etc. I haven't seen anyone offering anything but unproven opinion. and yes I do visually check contact points through the motion but I have never worried about if the geometry is off a little. I am sure at high levels it becomes more crucial.




Just curious, in your opinion is .025 net lift loss significant? I ask because that's what I've lost by changing my geometry.

I also gain and or lose over 400 useable RPM in my shift points by changing the geometry.

Still not to worry about?


no because I am not worried about a few HP, like I said I am a bracket racer and as long is it doesn't have a reliability issue I could care less. tell me how much power you lost?




Sounds like you already know how much I lost, a few HP.

So we agree it makes a difference?

Last edited by MadMopars; 10/16/14 12:35 PM.
Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: MadMopars] #1685552
10/16/14 12:36 PM
10/16/14 12:36 PM
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here is my theory, at my level it is not significant enough to make a big difference. if some of you think it is give us some facts. like HP difference and dyno info/ life of the motor etc. I haven't seen anyone offering anything but unproven opinion. and yes I do visually check contact points through the motion but I have never worried about if the geometry is off a little. I am sure at high levels it becomes more crucial.




Just curious, in your opinion is .025 net lift loss significant? I ask because that's what I've lost by changing my geometry.

I also gain and or lose over 400 useable RPM in my shift points by changing the geometry.

Still not to worry about?


no because I am not worried about a few HP, like I said I am a bracket racer and as long is it doesn't have a reliability issue I could care less. tell me how much power you lost?




Sounds like you already know how much I lost.

So we agree it makes a difference?


I don't think so because i don't think you can tell me exactly?

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: Monte_Smith] #1685553
10/16/14 12:36 PM
10/16/14 12:36 PM
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... I have by definition established this previously stated "Optimal Geometry" in my application and as such I have now sacrificed performance to a degree...



Care to explain more re: this statement?




Utilizing the 90 degree mid lift theory in my application has resulted in increased valvetrain stability. It has also caused a loss of performance. It will now rev higher without adverse effects, but E.T has slowed regardless of shift point. Power has been sacrificed for stability.


Has this been corroborated on a dyno, as in you KNOW you make less power or is the car just running a little slower ET.............Where on the track did it slow? Is it early, in the middle or on the top end. If the car runs the same speed it ran before, it makes the same power. You just may not be getting it down as consistently or as easily as you were before.

My point is that it seems hard for me to believe that MORE revs and better stability has cost you power

Monte




Exactly what I was thinking. The track/street has too many variables to make an accurate assesement.


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Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: Quicktree] #1685554
10/16/14 12:52 PM
10/16/14 12:52 PM
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"a few HP", those were your words. I thought maybe you had some hard facts from experience you were throwing out there since that's what your looking for from everyone else.

For what it's worth, I will state that without a doubt Valvetrain Geometry does affect engine performance characteristics.

To what extent is relative to each individual build... Your results may vary.

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: Thumperdart] #1685555
10/16/14 01:03 PM
10/16/14 01:03 PM
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Thumper, I agree there are other variables to consider. I plan on performing additional testing to reduce the amount of these variables and as such provide more solid information.

I typically measure success by E.T., others may use engine longevity or chase a dyno sheet.

I post questions on this forum to learn. I can usually weed through the posts and find something beneficial to my application. Not all information applies to everyone.

I will try to provide more information in the near future so that hopefully individuals can benefit from my experience just as I have from others.

Last edited by MadMopars; 10/16/14 01:04 PM.
Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: MadMopars] #1685556
10/16/14 01:08 PM
10/16/14 01:08 PM
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I hear ya man. I use the track as a means to see if my mods/tune has hp benefits which result in lower et`s...........SOMETIMES! I`ll say this which may apply to your results; If the scrub is as bad as some I`ve seen, it can and will cock the valve which in turn COULD create more friction and let oil into the combustion chamber and oil doesn`t ignite well.


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: MadMopars] #1685557
10/16/14 05:27 PM
10/16/14 05:27 PM
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"a few HP", those were your words. I thought maybe you had some hard facts from experience you were throwing out there since that's what your looking for from everyone else.

For what it's worth, I will state that without a doubt Valvetrain Geometry does affect engine performance characteristics.

To what extent is relative to each individual build... Your results may vary.


I thought I was pretty clear, I don't check it and don't worry about it. I have no idea how much difference in HP thats why asked for info from people who have fact/dyno data. im curious to know.

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: Quicktree] #1685558
10/16/14 06:22 PM
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"a few HP", those were your words. I thought maybe you had some hard facts from experience you were throwing out there since that's what your looking for from everyone else.

For what it's worth, I will state that without a doubt Valvetrain Geometry does affect engine performance characteristics.

To what extent is relative to each individual build... Your results may vary.


I thought I was pretty clear, I don't check it and don't worry about it. I have no iea how much difference in HP thats why asked for info from people who have fact/dyno data. im curious to know.



Well, I was going to ask permission to post, but I had to post to ask, so I'm just going to pee away on yet another geometry thread. Geometry makes a difference! Before valve side correction.

8302474-1413494539330.jpg (106 downloads)

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Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: B3RE] #1685559
10/16/14 06:26 PM
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After correction.

8302480-1413494780988.jpg (109 downloads)

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Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: B3RE] #1685560
10/16/14 06:27 PM
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Before and after graph.


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Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: B3RE] #1685561
10/16/14 06:46 PM
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so what we're talking here is less than a 1% difference?
thanks but i'll concentrate my efforts elsewhere
long as it's not damaging parts i'm ok with it
if i should ever decide to run comp eliminator maybe i'll revisit that position

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: jamesc] #1685562
10/16/14 07:02 PM
10/16/14 07:02 PM
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so what we're talking here is less than a 1% difference?
thanks but i'll concentrate my efforts elsewhere
long as it's not damaging parts i'm ok with it
if i should ever decide to run comp eliminator maybe i'll revisit that position


lol yea thats really worth the effort

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: B3RE] #1685563
10/16/14 07:02 PM
10/16/14 07:02 PM
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Got any before after set up info? Mid lift, 2/3rds lift? Where did the 90* occur in the lift before correction?


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: B3RE] #1685564
10/16/14 07:03 PM
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Before and after graph.


pretty much what I thought, thanks for posting

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: jamesc] #1685565
10/16/14 07:39 PM
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so what we're talking here is less than a 1% difference?
thanks but i'll concentrate my efforts elsewhere
long as it's not damaging parts i'm ok with it
if i should ever decide to run comp eliminator maybe i'll revisit that position


46 horsepower at the 5800 shift point is a bit more than one percent. If you are referring to peak power, that isn't where you shift the motor.


Mike Beachel

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Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: Quicktree] #1685566
10/16/14 07:41 PM
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so what we're talking here is less than a 1% difference?
thanks but i'll concentrate my efforts elsewhere
long as it's not damaging parts i'm ok with it
if i should ever decide to run comp eliminator maybe i'll revisit that position


lol yea thats really worth the effort


yeah, I thought a couple tenths was worth it too.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: HotRodDave] #1685567
10/16/14 07:44 PM
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Got any before after set up info? Mid lift, 2/3rds lift? Where did the 90* occur in the lift before correction?


What I can tell you is, the shaft had to be raised .270" to get to 90*.


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Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: B3RE] #1685568
10/16/14 07:45 PM
10/16/14 07:45 PM
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Quote:

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so what we're talking here is less than a 1% difference?
thanks but i'll concentrate my efforts elsewhere
long as it's not damaging parts i'm ok with it
if i should ever decide to run comp eliminator maybe i'll revisit that position


lol yea thats really worth the effort


yeah, I thought a couple tenths was worth it too.








There's NO WAY that's a couple tenths.. Total BS..


Chris..

Re: What is Proper Valvetrain Geometry? [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1685569
10/16/14 08:15 PM
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i'll bet correcting my geometry will not net anywhere near 46hp with my current combo. that would put me near 700hp with a small flat tappet cam.

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