Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: '72CudaRacer]
#1663024
08/25/14 01:05 AM
08/25/14 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Thats very close to my old 440 I used to have in my 63. Its a good build to compare too:
1970 440 block .030 with stock rods and KB quench dome pitons and stock crank
906 heads I ported and added 2.14 and 1.81 valves and they were cut to give me 10.0 and quench with the KB pistons.
Holley Street Dominator intake with an 850 DP
Mallory dist with MP orange ign box running 37 total
MP .557 cam and Isky ductile rockers
Hedman 1-3/4 headers with 3 inch pipes and a H-pipe with Ultra-Flow mufflers
727 with Dynamic 9.5 converter that flashes about 4200 and turbo action revers manual valve body
8-3/4 with 4.30's and 30 x 9 Hoosier radial slicks
Car weighs just over 3700 lbs with me in it and ran a best ever of 11.49 @ 116 on a real good day. Average et's were from 11.60's to 11.80's. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 08/25/14 01:08 AM.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663027
08/25/14 09:58 AM
08/25/14 09:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,088 Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
gregsdart
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,088
Frostbitefalls MN (Rocky&Bullw...
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I would start with the basics, getting the bottom end in the best shape possible. You have no quench in that motor, poor ring seal, and low compression. The fix is some .030 reverse dome pistons like the KB hypereutectic, and deck the block to the right height along with setting the chambers up for a max .045 distance. Put the cam in advanced and the deal ought to pick up a whole lot of performance. Do this, and properly gap the rings and the car ought to go 11.80s with a good cold air kit.
8.582, 160.18 mph best, 2905 lbs 549, indy 572-13, alky
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: 74yellowduster]
#1663029
08/25/14 02:08 PM
08/25/14 02:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433 Toronto
mshred
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Electric water pump (you have it, mine as well try it!), ditch the choke masters for a straight through muffler and a cross pipe (X or H), and maybe sell off the bigger headers and tunnel ram for an entry level aluminum head like a stealth? I am no expert, but can appreciate the budget builds...it would be nice to take the motor out, deck it, pistons, etc....but then all that nonsense isn't budget anymore lol Good luck and cool ride!
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663030
08/25/14 02:25 PM
08/25/14 02:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282 A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
The heads were ported with the M.P. Template kit FWIW. I also tried a Holley 850 in place of my 750 Silver Claw and the car slowed down if you can believe that. I still don't quite understand that. With the Tunnel Ram, I run two 660 CFM Holley's and it loves it. I was just trying to keep the motor under the hood for now though.
I talked to Dwayne Porter about the MP templates once as a set of heads I bought were template ported, if you stick to the instructions it specifically tells you not to touch the short turn and that is where the big gains come from ... but if you do not know what you are doing you can turn them into junk pretty fast, the better heads to do would have been the smoggers , they don't have a short turn to screw up .... just adding the valves and bowl blending don't really do much, other than burn money.
The heads are the cork , either have someone that knows what they are doing rework them and cut them .050 as stated to bump compression and that should get you there .
Did you change the jetting on that 850 or just throw it on and expect it to go faster ?
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: mshred]
#1663031
08/25/14 02:43 PM
08/25/14 02:43 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942
Metro Detroit
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- Fresh air via the headlights - put it on a diet - figure out why the bigger carb didn't help it, it should have - 488/Dana is heavier, and you are already winding it out quite a bit a 100-150 shot could put you in the 11.50's, and retain all street-ability, but you would be out of revs well before the stripe
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: '72CudaRacer]
#1663032
08/25/14 03:31 PM
08/25/14 03:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301
Tucson AZ,
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First, Thanks to everyone for the input. Much appreciated. After reading through this thread and doing some research, I do believe there should be something to be gained by swapping to an 850. When I tried the last 850, the car sounded substantially louder. I would have sworn it would have picked up E.T. At the track it seemed to run rich even after re-jetting and general tuning. I know the carb is a good working carb. It was on my Dads Belvedere for years and worked great. It just didn't seem to work out well on my car. I will throw another one on there and see what happens. Regarding compression, I know it's holding me back a good amount. I just hate to throw a bunch of money at it right now. By the time I buy the pistons, bore the motor, get rid of my stupid "six pack rods", balance it, buy gaskets and rings it'll be a good chunk of change. I have a 13:1 451 short block and a 10.5:1 440 long block sitting in the garage for other projects. I just assume throw one of those in there for a bit before I throw a ton of money at this motor right now. Purchasing cylinder heads is also probably out of the question for awhile. Cutting mine down does seem tempting though as does advancing the cam. I've contemplated advancing the cam, even considered swapping rocker arms to 1.6's. Again, these are substantially cheaper projects and involve modifying or changing parts I already have so perhaps that adds appeal. Thanks again for the input guys! I really appreciate it! If money was no object I would certainly try everything. However coming up on the holidays in this awesome economy my hands are slightly tied for now. At the same time I think part of the fun for me is the quest to see how fast I can go with this budget build. I just worry that I'm approaching the end of the budget aspect and may be expecting to much from the setup. I'll be sure to keep you all posted with what directions I go and how it works out.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663033
08/25/14 04:26 PM
08/25/14 04:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433 Toronto
mshred
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,433
Toronto
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Quote:
First, Thanks to everyone for the input. Much appreciated.
After reading through this thread and doing some research, I do believe there should be something to be gained by swapping to an 850. When I tried the last 850, the car sounded substantially louder. I would have sworn it would have picked up E.T. At the track it seemed to run rich even after re-jetting and general tuning. I know the carb is a good working carb. It was on my Dads Belvedere for years and worked great. It just didn't seem to work out well on my car. I will throw another one on there and see what happens.
Regarding compression, I know it's holding me back a good amount. I just hate to throw a bunch of money at it right now. By the time I buy the pistons, bore the motor, get rid of my stupid "six pack rods", balance it, buy gaskets and rings it'll be a good chunk of change. I have a 13:1 451 short block and a 10.5:1 440 long block sitting in the garage for other projects. I just assume throw one of those in there for a bit before I throw a ton of money at this motor right now.
Purchasing cylinder heads is also probably out of the question for awhile. Cutting mine down does seem tempting though as does advancing the cam. I've contemplated advancing the cam, even considered swapping rocker arms to 1.6's. Again, these are substantially cheaper projects and involve modifying or changing parts I already have so perhaps that adds appeal.
Thanks again for the input guys! I really appreciate it! If money was no object I would certainly try everything. However coming up on the holidays in this awesome economy my hands are slightly tied for now. At the same time I think part of the fun for me is the quest to see how fast I can go with this budget build. I just worry that I'm approaching the end of the budget aspect and may be expecting to much from the setup. I'll be sure to keep you all posted with what directions I go and how it works out.
What is the cam currently installed on for ICL? I would definitely advance the cam...Its a few hours of your time, some gaskets, and a degree wheel and could really make a difference! My car was a dog all last year until I finally advanced my cam 4 degrees, and it really woke up, especially on the 60' foot...Heavy car just like yours too...try it, might like it
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: 383man]
#1663034
08/25/14 06:13 PM
08/25/14 06:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Quote:
Thats very close to my old 440 I used to have in my 63. Its a good build to compare too:
1970 440 block .030 with stock rods and KB quench dome pitons and stock crank
906 heads I ported and added 2.14 and 1.81 valves and they were cut to give me 10.0 and quench with the KB pistons.
Holley Street Dominator intake with an 850 DP
Mallory dist with MP orange ign box running 37 total
MP .557 cam and Isky ductile rockers
Hedman 1-3/4 headers with 3 inch pipes and a H-pipe with Ultra-Flow mufflers
727 with Dynamic 9.5 converter that flashes about 4200 and turbo action revers manual valve body
8-3/4 with 4.30's and 30 x 9 Hoosier radial slicks
Car weighs just over 3700 lbs with me in it and ran a best ever of 11.49 @ 116 on a real good day. Average et's were from 11.60's to 11.80's. Ron
I meant to say that I only posted my old combo just to give you and idea of how another combo close to yours ran so it might help you compare things with yours. But I did forget to tell you I had the MP .557 cam in on a 104 installed centerline. Hope it might help you some and good luck with it. Ron
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663035
08/25/14 07:08 PM
08/25/14 07:08 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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Why are you shifting at only 56-5800? A 250ish @ .050 cam in a 440 should be shifted about 1000 rpm higher. Also, you mentioned swapping to a 1.6 rocker (assuming roller), but what are you running now?
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: B3RE]
#1663036
08/25/14 07:34 PM
08/25/14 07:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
I meant to say that I only posted my old combo just to give you and idea of how another combo close to yours ran so it might help you compare things with yours. But I did forget to tell you I had the MP .557 cam in on a 104 installed centerline. Hope it might help you some and good luck with it. Ron
Thanks for the info Ron. I'm debating on advancing the cam only because I need more top end power than bottom end right now. My understanding is advancing the cam will do just the opposite. Thoughts?
Quote:
Why are you shifting at only 56-5800? A 250ish @ .050 cam in a 440 should be shifted about 1000 rpm higher. Also, you mentioned swapping to a 1.6 rocker (assuming roller), but what are you running now?
Anything over 5800 and the car slows down across the board. As I type that, I think back to Cab's comment about fuel or other scenarios that I may be overlooking.
Rocker arms are 1.5 rollers.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663037
08/25/14 08:53 PM
08/25/14 08:53 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,831 Holland MI Ottawa
2boltmain
master
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master
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,831
Holland MI Ottawa
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Weight loss and transfer- Aluminum h20 housing and pump- battery in trunk?
Keep old mopars alive.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663038
08/25/14 08:58 PM
08/25/14 08:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561 USA
B3RE
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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That's what I suspected. I think you have valvetrain instability that is limiting your rpm. I also think the cam is too big for that compression ratio. You need cylinder pressure and the only way to get it is with more compression or a smaller cam. Advancing the cam will help too, but it will take away from the top end. A cam about 15-20 degrees smaller and correct the valvetrain issues, and it will be a totally different animal.
Mike Beachel
I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: B3RE]
#1663039
08/26/14 02:04 AM
08/26/14 02:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
That's what I suspected. I think you have valvetrain instability that is limiting your rpm. I also think the cam is too big for that compression ratio. You need cylinder pressure and the only way to get it is with more compression or a smaller cam. Advancing the cam will help too, but it will take away from the top end. A cam about 15-20 degrees smaller and correct the valvetrain issues, and it will be a totally different animal.
I'll bite, how did you determine that already? What's your recommendation for repair? How much is it going to cost me? Is it guaranteed to make my car faster?
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663042
08/26/14 11:52 AM
08/26/14 11:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167 maryland
74yellowduster
member
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member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
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these are for sale in the mopar engine forum if that was the total price it would be just the ticket for you, but they are MW port size so you are talkin intake and headers to match prolly Quote:
These were Dwayne Porters personal Heads, hand ported, to MW port size. Ran only on a dyno about 10 pulls, made 712 HP on a 451 motor. I have oil lines, valley cover (indy), head bolts See pic. I have more to send if needed. All you see is included. Message here please. $2850. Reasonable offers considered. Message here please. Attachment Edited by Blown70 (Fri Aug 22 2014 09:52 AM)
Last edited by 74yellowduster; 08/26/14 11:52 AM.
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Re: Opinions wanted, what would you change? Budget Build...
[Re: MadMopars]
#1663043
08/26/14 12:14 PM
08/26/14 12:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,496 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,496
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Do NOT put on larger primary headers. That will kill the lowend. I would also not use the 4.88 gears or the tunnelram. The tunnelram would probably run good, but that's not the "look" you're after. Like you mentioned, I'm also not a fan of slow "racecars". The exhaust will benefit from a crossover...X pipe makes more power than an H, if you don't mind the sound of an X pipe. Either one will be better than true duals. I don't argue that a straight through muffler flows better than a flowmaster, but on this combo I don't think they'll make much difference. I ran an old pair of 3" 2 chamber flowmasters on my car when it was running mid 11s...made no difference w/ or w/o them. If your flowmasters are the bigger 3 chambers, then scrap them and get some straight through mufflers like a Dynomax ultraflow or Hooker max flow. The Holley SD is a VERY good manifold...I'd stick w/ it. A properly tuned bigger carb will definitely help. 440's love cfm...put an 830, 850, or even a 950 double pumper on it. I'd keep the cam you have. You could always throw some .020" thick steel shim head gaskets on it to gain some compression quickly and easily. Cheap too. Of course it wouldn't cost much to have another .020" or .030" shaved off the heads while you have them off. It would probably like a looser converter too. You can have your current converter loosened up by any of the good converter companies. In my experience, the electric water pump will be worth nearly a whole tenth in the 1/4 by itself. On my car, I dropped a little over a tenth by eliminating the big clutch fan...still had the mechanical water pump. Dropped almost another tenth w/ an electric water pump. If you get one of the moroso water pump drive kits, you can switch to it at the track...just swap to a shorter belt and change the pulley at the track. The moroso water pump drive will not keep cool on the street.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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