Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: BradH]
#165577
12/11/08 12:06 PM
12/11/08 12:06 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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Good info. Thanks, Brad! It would appear that most additives don't even come close to meeting thier claims. I think I'll stick with my race fuel/pump gas mix plan but I'm gonna print that out for future reference. Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: ashburnmike]
#165578
12/11/08 12:40 PM
12/11/08 12:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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This reaffirms that it's critical to achieve .035-.040" quench via head/gasket/deck height when selecting parts & I won't even consider an open chambered head anymore. With you being already built as said if there's an additive that works or blend in some av gas or race gas whichever ends up being the most cost effective for you.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: RapidRobert]
#165579
12/11/08 02:06 PM
12/11/08 02:06 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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i did research it, brad. did you notice something odd about those reported test results???
The talk about the octane rating in RON. the research number. when you use the R+M/2 method, you can cut those numbers all in half or so. so the claims of gain 2.8 points of octane shrink down to 1 point or so give or take.
my point about them being junk is that they advertise and make people believe they will raise your octane incredible amounts- hence 108 octane.... Thats bs. not even close to what the results are. and when you try and pull that snake oil type marketing bs on me, I call shenanigans.
they should clearly state that they will raise your octane a point- MAYBE and in the real world, you wont realize much from that as a simple adjustment to give you a slightly richer mixture or backing down the timing or adjusting the vacuum advance to come in later or under more vacuum could do the same.
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: ashburnmike]
#165580
12/11/08 05:41 PM
12/11/08 05:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,141 East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
RoadRunner
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,141
East Aurora (Buffalo) NY
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I try to do the race gas/street gas mixture, but on long trips to the nationals, I have used the NOS stuff with positive results. I am on the cusp of being able to get away with 93 Octane, so it seems to work. Of course, I usually have a few gallons of the race/street mix, so I haven't soley relied on it. But is has come through in a pinch.
68 Road Runner (383/4speed, post car w/decor pkg) - Major Project 69 Road Runner w/472 Hemi & 4 speed. 70 Challenger R/T SE EF8 w/ V9J, U - A32 - Major Project 2023 Ford Mach 1
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: GMP440]
#165583
12/11/08 08:07 PM
12/11/08 08:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759 So Cal
HealthServices
Why would you even post that?
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Why would you even post that?
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,759
So Cal
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Moroso is just about the worst for eating things up like rubber lines.
Does boost octane though.
Allen
Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first.
Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: HealthServices]
#165584
12/12/08 11:18 PM
12/12/08 11:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 727 Ottawa, ontario
dd340
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 727
Ottawa, ontario
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Do yourself a favour and get this stuff if you need an octane boost. http://www.kemcooil.com/products.php?cId=4It is called octane supreme 130 and it works great because it has real lead in it. They are a chemical supply company that's mixes up an octane booster for "off road use" but I can tell you that it works really well. It is the same stuff they used to add to the hi-test in the 60's which is know as Ethyl. I would recommend that you use the best gas you can and then add 1-2 ounces/gallon. That should give you plenty of octane. I always have trouble with pinging until I bought a case of this stuff. When compared to mixing racing gas it might not be as cost effective but at least you can carry around a bottle and when you fill up at any gas station just mix some in. I think the other ocatane boosters that use chemical ingredients like MMT will also work but they don't seem as cost effective plus they dont have lead that the older engines like. If the booster is made from xylene or toluene, forget about it because those little bottles just won't be enough to make a difference in a big tank of gas.
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: dd340]
#165585
12/13/08 10:17 AM
12/13/08 10:17 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Octane boosters, not lead or even MMT, work by averaging your octane.
IOW, if your gasoline has 92 octane and you put in 16 oz of booster with 115 (for example) octane you get a miniscule bump in octane.
You can do better, and cheaper, by running Ketone or other high octance hydrocarbons in your gas. Heck a gallon of Methanol or better yet ethanol will do more than a bottle of octane boost.
Lead, and to a lesser extent MMT, work differently by chemically altering the gasoline molecule to make it more resistant to lighting off, not by raisng the octane level though the effect is the same.
Octane is rated on a special test motor that can vary the compression ratio. The difference in MON and RON numbers is the temperature of the air charge coming in, essentially.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: Supercuda]
#165586
12/13/08 10:26 AM
12/13/08 10:26 AM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327 Glendale, AZ
69L78Nova
Banned. Forever.
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Banned. Forever.
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,327
Glendale, AZ
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I get all my gas from the airport thats 15 miuntes away. 108LL for $3.49/gallon. Been getting it there for 12 years.
1969 Nova 454/M21/3.31 Mild mid-11 second weekend cruiser
1994 F150 XLT Super Cab 2WD 5.0/4R70W/3.55 (Daily driver)
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: dd340]
#165587
12/13/08 11:10 AM
12/13/08 11:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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thanks for the web link to that tetra-ethyl lead supplier, I will add that to my archive
Here is an archived article with info on another tetra-ethyl lead supplier that may (or may not) still offer it in bulk:
====
Lead additives Chicago Tribune, Motormouth columnist Bob Weber
Q - Do you know of any sources for purchasing a lead additive for antique autos? I picked up a 1963 Wildcat convertible in excellent condition with only 53,000 miles on it. I also have two friends in a car club who are interested in a lead additive. They have'52 and '56 Cadillacs. We each drive about 600-1000 miles a year.
A - Gasoline used to contain a compound called tetraethyl lead, but due to health hazards, it was removed. Although you cannot buy this stuff over the counter, I found a distributor in Columbus, Ind. that sells it by the gallon ($22.95 per gallon) by mail. Although it isn't cheap, about 12 ounces treats 20 gallons of premium gas. "Max Lead 2000" is available from Vogel Products, 812-376-2775. They offer quantity discounts to car clubs.
There are other products available at most auto parts stores, but they are lead substitutes and may contain a variety of other chemical compounds including phosphates, sulfates, sodium and so on.
However, with as little driving as you and your friends do, and considering that you probably baby your cars rather than race them, you probably need nothing. Your engines will probably see no valve recession for many, many years. =======
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: 360view]
#165588
12/13/08 11:14 AM
12/13/08 11:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162 USA
360view
Moparts resident spammer
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Moparts resident spammer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,162
USA
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on the subject of pinging and octane here is another archived post with two different people's Rules of Thumb about different engine settings =====
Several days ago I posted Jim Bell of Kenne Bell Company's 'rules of thumb' about octane, temperatures and pressure effects on engines.
Here are some quotes from a recent article on engine knock, written by an engineer who just finished doing his Master's Thesis on Engine Detonation at an Austrailan University.
I have converted the metric temperatures and pressures in the original article to good old psi and degrees F. Words inside { } are my comments.
begin quotes -----------------
"Causes Of Knock As discussed, for a given engine the type of fuel is the most important factor in promoting or preventing end-gas autoignition, also known as 'knock' or pinging. The following guidelines show how various engine operating parameters affect the fuel octane requirement of an engine. The higher the octane requirement, the more likely an engine is to knock for a given fuel.
Effect On Octane Requirement (ON = octane number)
Spark advance 1 ON per 1 degree Spark Advance { Jim Bell rule was 0.5 to 0.75 ON per 1 degree Spark Advance}
Intake air temperature 1 ON per 13 degrees F { Jim Bell rule was 1 ON per 20 degrees F}
Air/Fuel ratio Chance of knocking Peaks at around 5% rich of stoichiometric {about 14 to 1}
Decrease of around 2 ON per A/F ratio around peak
{ so richening a Magnum engine from 14.7 at cruise, to 11.7 at WOT like the factory PCM programing does, has an effect like switching gasoline from 87 octane to [14.7 - 11.7] x 2 + 87 = 93 octane. The extra rich mixture at WOT is apparently an attempt by Dodge to reduce pinging. I wonder if the 'Reflash' of the PCM computer by the Dodge dealer not only retards timing but also richens the WOT mixture even more ? Jim Bell rule was also 2 ON per 1 A/F change}
Intake Pressure 3-4 ON per 1.4 psi { so if a KN filter/inlet system actually lets more air pressure get to the intake manifold this would INCREASE the tendency to ping. Jim Bell rule was 1.4 ON = 1.4 psi increase. Since 14.7 psi is atmospheric pressure and is also equal to 30 inches of mercury 'barometric presssure' or 400 inches of water pressure, then if you have a vacuum/boost gauge fitted to engine you can judge how intake mods have affected your engine's need for higher octane gasoline. }
Compression Ratio 5 ON per 1.0 Compression Ratio increase/decrease
{ Jim Bell rule was 3 ON per 1 CR increase. The Mopar Performance PCM computer advances the ignition timing by something between 12 and 9 degrees. A better way to get both hp and better MPG would have been to raise the 5.2/5.9 V8 compression ratio from 8.9 to about 9.9 with a head gasket change. The 4.7V8 has a compression ratio of 9.0, but with two sparkplugs per cylinder and knock sensors the 5.7Hemi was designed for 9.6}
Exhaust back pressure 1 ON per 4 psi { so a low restriction exhaust system may increase pinging very slightly, and a quick fix to reduce pinging might be to put a big dent in the exhaust pipe. A stock 1995 5.9V8 has about 7 psi of backpressure at full throttle at 4000 rpm.}
Coolant temperature 1 ON per 18 degrees F { Jim Bell rule was 1 ON per 10 degrees. The 180 degree thermostat change that is so highly touted lowers the coolant temperature by about 15 degrees from the stock 195, so its effect is small - like putting 88 octane in instead of 87 octane.}
Similar ON effect for cylinder head and engine block temperature. { so removing the rubber strip from the firewall cowl on a Ram truck may slightly reduce the tendency to knock too}
For naturally aspirated engines, the two main design and tuning parameters given in the table are the compression ratio and the spark advance. For an engine at wide open throttle (maximum inlet manifold pressure) and normal operating temperature; these two parameters, if increased, are then proportionally the most likely to produce knocking combustion.
Detection Of Knock There are several ways of detecting when knock is occurring in an engine. Only some methods, however, are capable of measuring the knock intensity.
1. Sound of Knock Knock is audible to the average human ear when more than about 10% of total engine cycles knock. The human ear is the most obvious and readily available device to detect knock. The ear is surprisingly sensitive and routinely used in determining the octane requirement of an engine. The sound of knock is best described as a sharp metallic "ping". This sound is caused by the high pressure and frequency waves impacting against the cylinder walls, giving rise to a ringing knock as though they had been struck by a light hammer. The ringing noise is worsened by the way in which the energy of the pressure wave is not completely absorbed when it first contacts the chamber wall. Instead, the wave is only slightly diminished and then reflected back across the chamber, continuing this process until all the energy is lost to the engine structure as vibration or dissipated through the gas.
2. Sight and Pressure of Knock A high-intensity flash is observed in the cylinder when knock occurs. This facilitates the use of optical probes and ionisation detectors to measure at least the presence of knock if not its intensity. Much of what we know about combustion today has come from the analysis of photographs taken using high-speed cameras as first successfully developed in 1941. More recently, as the technology has become widely available, direct measurement of cylinder pressures during combustion has been used to study knock. Direct pressure measurement allows the study of the actual intensity of knock. The piezoelectric pressure transducer has been the standard sensor for some time. Typical pressure traces from a cylinder experiencing knocking and non-knocking operation were shown earlier.
A major obstacle in developing feasible combustion pressure sensors has been to overcome sensor performance degradation caused by high combustion temperatures and strong electromagnetic interference (EMI) from sparkplug wires. So far, due to inherent material limitations, conventional piezoelectric type combustion pressure sensors cannot operate over 200°C without water-cooling. In addition, signal conditioning electronics must usually be located near the sensor head to combat the strong EMI and stray capacitance loading effects of spark-plug leads." ----------------- end quote
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: Supercuda]
#165589
12/13/08 04:33 PM
12/13/08 04:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 727 Ottawa, ontario
dd340
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 727
Ottawa, ontario
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Quote:
Octane boosters, not lead or even MMT, work by averaging your octane.
IOW, if your gasoline has 92 octane and you put in 16 oz of booster with 115 (for example) octane you get a miniscule bump in octane.
You can do better, and cheaper, by running Ketone or other high octance hydrocarbons in your gas. Heck a gallon of Methanol or better yet ethanol will do more than a bottle of octane boost.
Lead, and to a lesser extent MMT, work differently by chemically altering the gasoline molecule to make it more resistant to lighting off, not by raisng the octane level though the effect is the same.
Octane is rated on a special test motor that can vary the compression ratio. The difference in MON and RON numbers is the temperature of the air charge coming in, essentially.
this isnt really accurate. Gas companies include various chemicals to increase the Anti Knock Index (AKI) of their fuels. In the past the main reason that TEL was added to fuel was to increase the octane in the fuel. Now they use various other chemicals. By adding just 1 or 2 grams or lead per galon will definately have a big impact on your fuel's octance and therefore the AKI. This is the same reason that so many race fuels still use TEL.
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: dd340]
#165590
12/13/08 05:48 PM
12/13/08 05:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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True, I was generalizing. Didn't want to get into a big chemical structure analysis. But generally speaking what I said holds up.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: Supercuda]
#165591
12/13/08 07:58 PM
12/13/08 07:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 412 Cleveland,Ohio
CtownChris
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 412
Cleveland,Ohio
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Kemco's Octane booster is $20.75 a quart. 32 oz in a quart and they rec 8oz octane boost per gallon. At that rate a $20.75 bottle will treat 4 frigin gallons! That raises 93 to 101 octane. (8 pts) Same amount boost in 8 gallons will raise octane from 93 to 97. (4 pts) One quart Kemco boost in 16 gallons will get you 95 octane. For $20.75? There site says "will get 2-16 point increase in octane" If you use a full quart for every 2 gallons you'll get 16 pt octane improvemnt.
The local Speedway sells Race fuel. I think 110 octane. I just fill a 5 gallon can and add it to my tank.
My street 383 runs just fine on BP (Amoco fuel)premium. I put a few gallons 110 in once in a while anyway. Maybe waste of money but it's not $20.75 a quart. Talk to your local speed shops I bet they know all the local places the sell Race fuel other than a track or airport.
It seems ALL octane boost is a waste of money. I guess if you carry a quart on Kemco boost in your trunk it might be of use in an emergency. Like the only open gas station only has 87 octane.
"Always go forward: Never go straight"
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: ashburnmike]
#165592
12/13/08 08:38 PM
12/13/08 08:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 338 Montreal Quebec
STROKIE
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 338
Montreal Quebec
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Quote:
Now that my 340 is running and I've taken it out a couple of times playing w/ the distributor timing. It does ping when I step on it. I have premium pump gas in it. While @ the Advance Auto Parts store I was reading the labels on the octane booster products. 1 bottle per tank etc. Does this stuff work? thanks
If you can, use AV Gaz... It is interesting to note that "100-Low-Lead" actually contains more than FOUR TIMES the lead which was in Sunoco-260, one of the highest-octane fuels ever produced for street-use automobiles.
I used it in my Dodge Charger since years My c/r is 11.5 to 1 and never had any problems with this fuel. Use it if you can
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Re: Parts store octane booster question
[Re: CtownChris]
#165594
12/14/08 10:30 AM
12/14/08 10:30 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 727 Ottawa, ontario
dd340
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 727
Ottawa, ontario
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Quote:
Kemco's Octane booster is $20.75 a quart. 32 oz in a quart and they rec 8oz octane boost per gallon. At that rate a $20.75 bottle will treat 4 frigin gallons! That raises 93 to 101 octane. (8 pts) Same amount boost in 8 gallons will raise octane from 93 to 97. (4 pts) One quart Kemco boost in 16 gallons will get you 95 octane. For $20.75? There site says "will get 2-16 point increase in octane" If you use a full quart for every 2 gallons you'll get 16 pt octane improvemnt.
The local Speedway sells Race fuel. I think 110 octane. I just fill a 5 gallon can and add it to my tank.
My street 383 runs just fine on BP (Amoco fuel)premium. I put a few gallons 110 in once in a while anyway. Maybe waste of money but it's not $20.75 a quart. Talk to your local speed shops I bet they know all the local places the sell Race fuel other than a track or airport.
It seems ALL octane boost is a waste of money. I guess if you carry a quart on Kemco boost in your trunk it might be of use in an emergency. Like the only open gas station only has 87 octane.
the mixing ratio is not 8oz per gallon, it is more like 1-2 oz per gallon and that is enough TEL to boost the octane in 1 gallon from 93 to about 96, plus the cost per bottle is much less if you buy a case which brings the cost down to about $10 per bottle, it is actualy quite cost effective.
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