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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1649283
07/23/14 01:12 AM
07/23/14 01:12 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Just curious, I have a digital manometer and was wondering if it would be good for this?
Sure if it reads + and - .. and the ones I used did
read both
Thanks Mike. I may check Matts engine out as we did a mid season bearing change on his 360 small block and his cranked out a couple 10.62 on a very hot day 2 weekends ago but he pushed some oil out the breather too. Runs to good for a .040 over 360 to be hurt but he can't run an e-vak system either as it has full exhaust on his duster.
I think he just has a baffle issue.. it might not
be making pressure but if the baffle isnt doing its job
it can be just the oil flying around and getting out..
put your gauge on it and check
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Sport440]
#1649284
07/23/14 01:59 AM
07/23/14 01:59 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
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Quote:
Definitely cut and get the breather nipples off the baffles.
Your evac hose is already Off/disconnected at the header and muffler system, so that is not Back pressurizing it.
Forget about hooking up a vaccum test port at the fuel pump block off plate. You dont have any vacuum. You have positive pressure. The leaks may be helped or stopped by sealing the breathers and reducing the nipple length to get them off the baffle plates.
Start there, if you still have to much positive pressure, oil will come out of the filters on the breathers. Then, you have Bigger problems, loss of ring seal or leaking head gasket.
Leaking head gasket just caught my attention...what is a sign of that? how do I know?
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649285
07/23/14 12:38 PM
07/23/14 12:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
Definitely cut and get the breather nipples off the baffles.
Your evac hose is already Off/disconnected at the header and muffler system, so that is not Back pressurizing it.
Forget about hooking up a vaccum test port at the fuel pump block off plate. You dont have any vacuum. You have positive pressure. The leaks may be helped or stopped by sealing the breathers and reducing the nipple length to get them off the baffle plates.
Start there, if you still have to much positive pressure, oil will come out of the filters on the breathers. Then, you have Bigger problems, loss of ring seal or leaking head gasket.
Leaking head gasket just caught my attention...what is a sign of that? how do I know?
Oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil, low coolant, high oil level, bubbles in the coolant when running, leak down tester could pick it up, Coolant pressure tester would definitely pick it up. Let the car sit for a few days, then crack the eng drain plug. Water ( or milky stuff ) will come out first if you have coolant in the oil. white exhaust smoke. - all in no particular order.
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1649286
07/23/14 02:04 PM
07/23/14 02:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1649287
07/23/14 02:23 PM
07/23/14 02:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
Monte.. you can run them with exhaust BUT if the exhaust
has 5"hg or greater then it will start to pressurize
the crank case and for every inch of back pressure
it reduces the vac in the crank case by the same amount
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1649289
07/23/14 02:34 PM
07/23/14 02:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
Well, you should have read my first post - where I mentioned all scenarios aren't the same and I referenced full street exhaust systems as " quiet enough to be legal". Any muffler ( and I use the term loosely ) that you can look straight threw and uses a 3" I.D. pipe or larger aint quiet enough to be legal - except maybe at your track - Harleys excluded.  Kinda reminds me of the pump gas / race gas thing. I pump my 110 from a GAS PUMP at a GAS STATION. Is it pump gas or race gas??? 
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Crizila]
#1649290
07/23/14 02:39 PM
07/23/14 02:39 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,204
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,204
PA.
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Quote:
Quote:
I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
Well, you should have read my first post - where I mentioned all scenarios aren't the same and I referenced full street exhaust systems as " quiet enough to be legal". Any muffler ( and I use the term loosely ) that you can look straight threw and uses a 3" I.D. pipe or larger aint quiet enough to be legal - except maybe at your track - Harleys excluded. Kinda reminds me of the pump gas / race gas thing. I pump my 110 from a GAS PUMP at a GAS STATION. Is it pump gas or race gas???
Race gas. 
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1649291
07/23/14 03:34 PM
07/23/14 03:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
Quicktree
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quote:
Quote:
I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
Monte.. you can run them with exhaust BUT if the exhaust
has 5"hg or greater then it will start to pressurize
the crank case and for every inch of back pressure
it reduces the vac in the crank case by the same amount
maybe so but I have also run them with exhaust and they worked fine. No pressure in the crank case
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Quicktree]
#1649293
07/23/14 04:00 PM
07/23/14 04:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
Monte.. you can run them with exhaust BUT if the exhaust
has 5"hg or greater then it will start to pressurize
the crank case and for every inch of back pressure
it reduces the vac in the crank case by the same amount
maybe so but I have also run them with exhaust and they worked fine. No pressure in the crank case
I guess I didn't do a very good job of qualifying a street exhaust system verses a race exhaust system. 
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1649294
07/23/14 04:03 PM
07/23/14 04:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
Well, you should have read my first post - where I mentioned all scenarios aren't the same and I referenced full street exhaust systems as " quiet enough to be legal". Any muffler ( and I use the term loosely ) that you can look straight threw and uses a 3" I.D. pipe or larger aint quiet enough to be legal - except maybe at your track - Harleys excluded. Kinda reminds me of the pump gas / race gas thing. I pump my 110 from a GAS PUMP at a GAS STATION. Is it pump gas or race gas???
Race gas.
- but if it was in your car and you wanted to impress the masses without actually lying - ??? 
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Crizila]
#1649295
07/23/14 04:05 PM
07/23/14 04:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,204
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,204
PA.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I didn't read all of this, but I don't know when it became a forgone conclusion that if you run mufflers, you CAN'T run a header evac system. Because that is simply NOT TRUE. I have run evacs on several muffled cars over the years and so do hundreds of other people with absolutely no issues. Every exhaust system in the world does NOT make back pressure and keep the evacs from working. That's one of those things that a guy had a problem, he told somebody, they said this, he told this guy, that guy told somebody else and before you know it, it becomes common that evacs and mufflers won't work. Except that knowledge is generally wrong.
But, to the original posters issue.....if it is pushing the breathers out, smokes out the evacs when connected, seems to me it has a lot of blowby
Monte
Well, you should have read my first post - where I mentioned all scenarios aren't the same and I referenced full street exhaust systems as " quiet enough to be legal". Any muffler ( and I use the term loosely ) that you can look straight threw and uses a 3" I.D. pipe or larger aint quiet enough to be legal - except maybe at your track - Harleys excluded. Kinda reminds me of the pump gas / race gas thing. I pump my 110 from a GAS PUMP at a GAS STATION. Is it pump gas or race gas???
Race gas.
- but if it was in your car and you wanted to impress the masses without actually lying - ???
That's why I always add 93 octane to my pump gas posts. We have a few east coast cheaters. 
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649296
07/23/14 04:38 PM
07/23/14 04:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Definitely cut and get the breather nipples off the baffles.
Your evac hose is already Off/disconnected at the header and muffler system, so that is not Back pressurizing it.
Forget about hooking up a vaccum test port at the fuel pump block off plate. You dont have any vacuum. You have positive pressure. The leaks may be helped or stopped by sealing the breathers and reducing the nipple length to get them off the baffle plates.
Start there, if you still have to much positive pressure, oil will come out of the filters on the breathers. Then, you have Bigger problems, loss of ring seal or leaking head gasket.
Leaking head gasket just caught my attention...what is a sign of that? how do I know?
If a gasket is breached into the intake vally, what your seeing could be a sign of that.
Its either that or to much blowby. A compression check comparison might catch a blown gasket, depends how bad its leaking.
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Sport440]
#1649297
07/23/14 06:41 PM
07/23/14 06:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
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I don't have any white exhaust smoke (except when I had oil built up in the evac tube), high or low oil level, coolant in the oil, or any of those symptoms, so hopefully it is NOT a head gasket issue. I don't drive the car every day, and when I do I check the oil...never milky or anything of the sort.
I have thought about moving my check valves for the evac behind the mufflers, but my mufflers are right at the end of my exhaust and then there are short turn downs right after them....Would make it a little difficult to burn em in there, and not sure how effective they would be there with not much pipe past them.
I did a compression test a few days ago, and all the cylinders were healthy, within 5-10psi range of eachother. I really do hope it is not blowby from the rings....I didn't think there would be a problem reusing my rings that don't have much miles on them in cylinders that still had lots of cross hatch
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649298
07/23/14 07:45 PM
07/23/14 07:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,038
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,038
Tulsa OK
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I bet the sealant you added to the covers and breathers will help. You likely have more oil up top now since your not oiling the lifters anymore and that might be splashing its way up. Mine leaks oil from the breathers after a pass or hard run and I just wipe it off and roll on lol. It leaks down average of about 2.5-3% so I am not concerned its a blow by problem.
Now the big question, what did it run with the new setup?
Clark
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Bad340fish]
#1649299
07/23/14 08:15 PM
07/23/14 08:15 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
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Quote:
I bet the sealant you added to the covers and breathers will help. You likely have more oil up top now since your not oiling the lifters anymore and that might be splashing its way up. Mine leaks oil from the breathers after a pass or hard run and I just wipe it off and roll on lol. It leaks down average of about 2.5-3% so I am not concerned its a blow by problem.
Now the big question, what did it run with the new setup?
Clark
I hope it does, or atleast puts me in the right direction. Taking the car for a drive tonight to the local hangout, so I will see when I get there what it looks like under the hood.
I have also decided that I am going to add a catch can and drill into my fuel pump block off plate with a -10 or -12 line to add some extra ventilation. If that with the open breathers does not help, I am going to try moving the check valves for the pan evac behind my mufflers...only problem is there is only about 1-2" of straight pipe after the muffler before it turns right down.
And yes, about the cars performance...I went 10.95 right off the trailer at 120mph running way LEAN. I left everything as it was from last year suspension wise, 34 degrees total timing, and a tighter nitrous converter. Went a 1.47 60' on that pass. I ran a 7.0 index the rest of the weekend and added some jet to the carb to get rid of the lean condition but didn't mess with anything else since it was running right at the index. I plan to head out to a TNT, try get some .80's out of it on the motor, and then once I get this crankcase pressure sorted out I want to start hitting it with the spray. Have a race with a exhaust, cold air, and tune GTR coming up that I NEED to win LOL
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649300
07/23/14 09:23 PM
07/23/14 09:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
[qu I am going to try moving the check valves for the pan evac behind my mufflers...only problem is there is only about 1-2" of straight pipe after the muffler before it turns right down.
No need for that IMO as you already stated that you disconnected that, as a test and it still pushed oil, right. And if you have the check valves and they are working, no need for that either..
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: dvw]
#1649302
07/24/14 06:41 PM
07/24/14 06:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,427
Toronto
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Quote:
I tried venting out of the fuel pump plate. Even with a Jessel belt and no timing chain it slung so much oil it filled the can in the garage. It now draws from the front of the right valve cover. Can make 25+ passes w/o emptying the tank.
Doug
I ordered the fittings to draw from the plate. I am going to run the hose up and over my alternator and down to the catch can in hopes that gravity will work for me and keep the oil down in the engine but pull pressure out of the crank case. I will have to try and see what happens. If it does not work, new fuel pump block off plate and bungs at the front of the valve covers. Do your bungs have a baffle behind them?
Also, I took the car for a drive last night- it seems after sealing up the crimped areas on the cheap evac breathers, no more oil is leaking out of them. I have hoses on each breather directed under the car. I am going to add the vent from the block off plate just for extra crankcase pressure relief. Also, what I thought was my front pan seal leaking is actually my crank seal- I must have hurt it when I was driving around with the pan evac creating positive pressure in the crankcase. I have an extra one I am going to install when the parts to do the block off plate get here.
I'll report back then as to what happens, but so far it seems I am on the right track.
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