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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1620292
05/15/14 12:57 PM
05/15/14 12:57 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
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I have never seen it done or heard about it being done. Burst panels are for blower applications.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1620294
05/15/14 02:42 PM
05/15/14 02:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
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Syracuse,NY
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RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1620295
05/15/14 03:58 PM
05/15/14 03:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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I thought these looked nice: http://www.bmfperformance.com/bmf-burst-panel/I have to call and see what physical dimensions are. Should I run one on each end of the plenum (Indy tunnel ram) or should I put one in between the carbs on the top plate? I think there is enough room to run one. My reason for even thinking about this was seeing a picture of an Indy tunnel ram with the front of the plenum all welded up. Thank you for your insight. 
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: ]
#1620296
05/15/14 06:08 PM
05/15/14 06:08 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 189
Virginia
64HemiSavoy
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Posts: 189
Virginia
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Quote:
I have never seen it done or heard about it being done. Burst panels are for blower applications.
Obviously haven't kept up with the SS/AH crowd? Lots of them run burst panels.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: jcc]
#1620302
05/17/14 08:43 PM
05/17/14 08:43 PM
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,675
Mt. Eden Ky.
Hemi Allstate
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Mt. Eden Ky.
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That's an interesting idea.  The Rat Roaster was known to have back fire issues, due to puddling fuel. I addressed that as well.  Mark
1996 Ram 1500 Sport
1968 road runner
1952 Sears Allstate licensed, pump gas, Hemi 5.98 @ 115.73 1.33 60 ft. The best is yet to come. Painless Performance / Street RODDER magazine Top 100 for 2019
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1620303
05/17/14 08:56 PM
05/17/14 08:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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Quote:
Look at the size of a burst panel, compared to 8 throttle blades wide open.........less area. A burst panel usually only helps a light sneeze when trying to crank. For a big backfire they are useless. What we use on the Pro-Mod cars is plastic bolts for the top plate. If it sneezes it just sheers the bolts, you replace them and away you go.
On a blower car, in addition to burst panel, they also run alum blower studs. So even when it pops panel, it still lifts the blower. You are just hoping the combo of the two keeps it from destroying the intake
Monte
When you say plastic bolts do mean nylon? I'll look into it.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1620304
05/18/14 02:14 AM
05/18/14 02:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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Quote:
Quote:
Look at the size of a burst panel, compared to 8 throttle blades wide open.........less area. A burst panel usually only helps a light sneeze when trying to crank. For a big backfire they are useless. What we use on the Pro-Mod cars is plastic bolts for the top plate. If it sneezes it just sheers the bolts, you replace them and away you go.
On a blower car, in addition to burst panel, they also run alum blower studs. So even when it pops panel, it still lifts the blower. You are just hoping the combo of the two keeps it from destroying the intake
Monte
When you say plastic bolts do mean nylon? I'll look into it.
Yes, just use the nylon bolts. Problem solved
Monte
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1620307
07/11/14 05:40 PM
07/11/14 05:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
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What I do with the plastic bolts, to keep from blowing the top off and destroying linkage or lines, is one of two methods.....One is you can make 4 "tethers" from very small steel cable. Fab up some small brackets at the four corners and it lifts and sets right back down......Two, is at the 4 corners, you install what amounts to a carb stud. Secure the intake top with the plastic bolts and put a spring and nut on the 4 corner studs. You are essentially making the WHOLE top the burst panel.
I know LOTS of people use them, but those small burst panels are pretty much useless. It MIGHT and I repeat MIGHT help you with a small pop when cranking, but chances are still VERY good that even if they do open, you will still taco shell the throttle plates. I would lots rather have to replace some plastic bolts and reseal the top, than try to wrestle bent throttle blades from a carb.......especially a Dominator. If the you bend them bad, you usually have to cut the throttle shafts out to get them out. Then you are out blades AND shafts.
Monte
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1620309
07/11/14 09:26 PM
07/11/14 09:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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Quote:
What I do with the plastic bolts, to keep from blowing the top off and destroying linkage or lines, is one of two methods.....One is you can make 4 "tethers" from very small steel cable. Fab up some small brackets at the four corners and it lifts and sets right back down......Two, is at the 4 corners, you install what amounts to a carb stud. Secure the intake top with the plastic bolts and put a spring and nut on the 4 corner studs. You are essentially making the WHOLE top the burst panel.
I know LOTS of people use them, but those small burst panels are pretty much useless. It MIGHT and I repeat MIGHT help you with a small pop when cranking, but chances are still VERY good that even if they do open, you will still taco shell the throttle plates. I would lots rather have to replace some plastic bolts and reseal the top, than try to wrestle bent throttle blades from a carb.......especially a Dominator. If the you bend them bad, you usually have to cut the throttle shafts out to get them out. Then you are out blades AND shafts.
Monte
Thank you as always for your insight. My car is a street/strip deal so most of my reasoning for installing the burst plates is for lean backfires when I am warming up the engine (i.e. a cold fall morning putting to the track). As far as the nylon bolts I am having a hard time finding flat allen head (tapered seat) 10-24 machine screws in the harder, UV-proof nylon. I did find some that are made from white nylon however they are quite soft and the cone on the underside of the bolt head is no as large in comparison to it's steel counterpart. Where do you guys buy your nylon bolts? The only place I have found them is home improvement stores and hardware outfits (ACE is the place).
I like the idea of tehers.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Hemi Allstate]
#1620311
07/12/14 12:28 AM
07/12/14 12:28 AM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Quote:
Quote:
I myself am just wondering how effective the burst plates are in the front side and the rear side of the RR intake, seems to me they would be more effective if they were on top of the lid more near the center? 
I cannot answer your question with my own experience, as I have yet to use my RR intake. However, I placed them where they are, as recommended by a board member, with a lot of experience with the RR intakes and modifications to the same. 
Mark
Shooting from the hip here, but I think it might be important to try and not compare an intake back fire to a normal combustion chamber ignition event, mainly not compressed to 180+psi prior to ignition and only 2"? max flame travel vs a partial manifold vacuum with 12 or more inches of flame travel. I suspect also that we are not talking long ram style intakes which would develop a certain amount of column inertia during a backfire. The most important point I think to consider is the large partial vacuum intake plenum likely works as a pretty good pressure shock absorber as the backfire begins, and the burst reliever has a lot more time to vent this pressure as the backfire takes place, and the pressure is pretty well distributed because of the relatively large volume, and where the burst panel is located would should not be as critical, more will it flow enough outflow to keep pressure spike workable. Ideally though more centrally located would be best, but knowing in advance which cyl starts the back fire would also mean one knows which cylinder to focus on to prevent it, if it's only one. As much as I may be minimizing the pressures, it is still a large energy pulse. I also have a bridge for sale. 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Hemi Allstate]
#1620314
07/12/14 08:47 AM
07/12/14 08:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 976
ontario canada
mac56
super stock
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super stock
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Posts: 976
ontario canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I myself am just wondering how effective the burst plates are in the front side and the rear side of the RR intake, seems to me they would be more effective if they were on top of the lid more near the center?
I cannot answer your question with my own experience, as I have yet to use my RR intake. However, I placed them where they are, as recommended by a board member, with a lot of experience with the RR intakes and modifications to the same.
Mark
It should not matter where it is. The pressure will be equal in all direction. It is similiar to a relief valve in a hydraulic system. The relief valve can be anywhere on the pressure side of the system.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: mac56]
#1620315
07/12/14 11:39 AM
07/12/14 11:39 AM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,414
St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
David_in_St_Croi
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,414
St. Croix, US Virgin Islands
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Try Mcmaster-Carr for the nylon machine screws. Here is the online page: http://www.mcmaster.com/#machine-screws/=ssz3ewAr 6.42 for a bag of 100 1" long 10-24 in black you could replace them every 3 months for several years if you are worried about UV. Since you are up in Babylon you can use UPS instead of the usual fight to convince companies (Mcmaster is actually better than most) to use the USPS and that the USPS CAN deliver to a USPS Post Office Box....... Now you guys have me all nervous about my Weiand tunnel ram.....
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: roadhazard]
#1620317
07/13/14 03:21 AM
07/13/14 03:21 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?
You want to use a 6/6 Nylon 
Might help if I included the link  
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00137OQTU/ref=...ASIN=B00137OQTU
I see that is the metric equivalent. Is 6/6 UV protected? We have major issues with white nylon zip ties out here. They become brittle in less than a year when fully exposed. Being a streeter our car spends time parked at the growers market, etc. throughout the summer.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1620318
07/13/14 10:30 AM
07/13/14 10:30 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?
You want to use a 6/6 Nylon
Might help if I included the link
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00137OQTU/ref=...ASIN=B00137OQTU
I see that is the metric equivalent. Is 6/6 UV protected? We have major issues with white nylon zip ties out here. They become brittle in less than a year when fully exposed. Being a streeter our car spends time parked at the growers market, etc. throughout the summer.
Yes it's metric, just attached the link to see if it's the same head type your looking for (tapered?). They seem to be a little difficult to locate in SAE Tapered Seat.
The 6/6 Nylon is what they make valve stem seals out of, however they are 30% glass filled (fiberglass). Nylon valve seals are tough as nails and live in a very harsh environment hence my recommendation for 6/6 Nylon. I really have no idea what they make Zip Ties out of. Probably a lot of re-ground junk would be my guess.
My Yahoo search for "6/6 Nylon Machine Screws" turned up more than Google. You can also search "Images" and follow the links
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Porter67]
#1620320
07/13/14 02:04 PM
07/13/14 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,845
Tampa
DusterDave
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,845
Tampa
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McMaster-Carr also sells aluminum and titanium bolts and studs. Just sayin'.
Gone to the dark side with an LS3 powered '57 Chevy 210
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: roadhazard]
#1620321
07/13/14 03:06 PM
07/13/14 03:06 PM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Is this what your looking for but in a 10-24 size?
You want to use a 6/6 Nylon
Might help if I included the link
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00137OQTU/ref=...ASIN=B00137OQTU
I see that is the metric equivalent. Is 6/6 UV protected? We have major issues with white nylon zip ties out here. They become brittle in less than a year when fully exposed. Being a streeter our car spends time parked at the growers market, etc. throughout the summer.
Yes it's metric, just attached the link to see if it's the same head type your looking for (tapered?). They seem to be a little difficult to locate in SAE Tapered Seat.
The 6/6 Nylon is what they make valve stem seals out of, however they are 30% glass filled (fiberglass). Nylon valve seals are tough as nails and live in a very harsh environment hence my recommendation for 6/6 Nylon. I really have no idea what they make Zip Ties out of. Probably a lot of re-ground junk would be my guess.
My Yahoo search for "6/6 Nylon Machine Screws" turned up more than Google. You can also search "Images" and follow the links
I'll do a bit more research. My prior investigation also turned up lots of metric options for "flat" (tapered) machine screws as well. As far as the zip ties we use they are black UV resistant and about 50 cents a piece. They may be made out of recycled junk but they do their job in very harsh environments for years and years without becoming brittle or shearing. I'll look into that as well.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1620322
07/13/14 04:10 PM
07/13/14 04:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Almost anything black nylon has inherent UV resistance greater then white Nylon. can;t imagine under hood UV on a bolt head of nylon would ever succumb to UV issues. They are cheap enough to toss rather then reuse.
Awhile back it was mentioned the manifold issues are similar to "hydraulics", if you discount the the concept that a liquid is for all intents and purposes non compressible and air is, and the speed of the pressure spike is much faster in a liquid (for example speed of sound in air 343 m/s vs 1461 m/s in oil), allowing less time for flow to displace volume/pressure thru the burst panel.
Nobody has an issue with a partially separated TR top acting like a WO stuck throttle?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: Jeremiah]
#1620323
07/13/14 05:53 PM
07/13/14 05:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,206
New York
polyspheric
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New York
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So sad... only 2 choices:
Do nothing (always popular), or spend $75 × how many?
No engineers here? Not sure which side of the boat hull to put the patch on?
Since there isn't any positive pressure unless something goes wrong (the complete opposite of a blower manifold) a holesaw and a big piece of duct tape works just fine. Fails instantly with any cough (which the small panels won't do until their pre-set is reached).
Wonder why they put stuff down a demo hole after the dynamite? Because the expansion in the first few milliseconds is very important.
Just imagine the facial expression when a sneeze wrecks the carbs, dents the hood, bends up the linkage and tears the fuel line off!!!
Well, except for the annoying comments of the skin-packaged billet color-anodized speed equipment enthusiasts...
[/rant]
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: jcc]
#1620324
07/14/14 04:46 AM
07/14/14 04:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
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Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
Almost anything black nylon has inherent UV resistance greater then white Nylon. can;t imagine under hood UV on a bolt head of nylon would ever succumb to UV issues. They are cheap enough to toss rather then reuse.
Awhile back it was mentioned the manifold issues are similar to "hydraulics", if you discount the the concept that a liquid is for all intents and purposes non compressible and air is, and the speed of the pressure spike is much faster in a liquid (for example speed of sound in air 343 m/s vs 1461 m/s in oil), allowing less time for flow to displace volume/pressure thru the burst panel.
Nobody has an issue with a partially separated TR top acting like a WO stuck throttle?
1) My tunnel ram will not be under the hood. UV protection is important.
2) If the car backfired and popped the manifolds lid off the mixture is going so lean it's not running anymore...I think?
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Re: Burst Plate(s) on Tunnel Ram
[Re: polyspheric]
#1620325
07/14/14 04:51 AM
07/14/14 04:51 AM
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
Jeremiah
OP
master
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OP
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Posts: 9,099
Rogue River, OR
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Quote:
So sad... only 2 choices:
Do nothing (always popular), or spend $75 × how many?
No engineers here? Not sure which side of the boat hull to put the patch on?
Since there isn't any positive pressure unless something goes wrong (the complete opposite of a blower manifold) a holesaw and a big piece of duct tape works just fine. Fails instantly with any cough (which the small panels won't do until their pre-set is reached).
Wonder why they put stuff down a demo hole after the dynamite? Because the expansion in the first few milliseconds is very important.
Just imagine the facial expression when a sneeze wrecks the carbs, dents the hood, bends up the linkage and tears the fuel line off!!!
Well, except for the annoying comments of the skin-packaged billet color-anodized speed equipment enthusiasts...
[/rant]
I'm not sure if you are saying I am smart of retarded for adding burst plated. I have considered playing with the springs to see how light I can go without causing a vacuum leak.
If you wanted to avoid bending butterflies on your Quickfuels at 6am on the way to work when the lean misfire occurs (stick car) what would you do? Please write this response in English. I don't speak /rant.
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