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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: dizuster]
#1618479
05/14/14 02:44 PM
05/14/14 02:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
dizuster
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
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Here is an interesting excerpt from circle track magazine. They actually found that having the angles EQUAL AND OPPOSITE made more HP at the tire then getting the driveshaft as straight as possible...
VERY interesting...
"At the end of the last set of runs, we experimented with pinion angles and actually learned some interesting facts. Our Winston Cup consulting engineer, Terry Satchell, told us the most important factor in pinion/driveshaft/transmission angles was to have equal angles at each end of the driveshaft. This would be the most efficient design, yielding less loss of horsepower from bearing bind at the chassis attitude that is the result of the car accelerating. What we discovered was not what we had expected.
We did experience a slight gain in horsepower due to changes in the pinion angle. We could not change the transmission angle, so all of the changes were to the pinion. We recorded a run at zero pinion angle and then at 10 degrees of pinion angle. We expected a loss in horsepower at the greater pinion angle, but actually experienced a net gain in horsepower. This was very confusing until we thought about what Terry had said. When the pinion was at 10 degrees, the angles at the ends of the driveshaft were opposite and closer to equal. This was a better situation providing less resistance than when the pinion was at zero degrees with the transmission angle at a much different angle.
Most racers only measure the pinion angle relative to the ground when they should measure both the pinion and transmission angles relative to the driveshaft. The angles should be equal and either opposite or in the same direction to help eliminate vibration and drag through the U-joints.
This yields more rear wheel horsepower as well as longer component life due to vibration-free movement as the bearings rotate.
"
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: dizuster]
#1618482
05/14/14 03:51 PM
05/14/14 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I wasn't making the point that this was a circle track car.
My point was that they dyno'd a car (any car), and on the chassis dyno the equal and opposite angles made more horsepower to the tire then when they had the pinion set to 0 degree's.
I dont know how that can be... if you have a engine/trans
in line with a solid shaft(no U-joints) to the diff
how can that eat power... basically we are trying
to eliminate the U-joints from the picture
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Quicktree]
#1618485
05/14/14 06:04 PM
05/14/14 06:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,526
Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
Mr. Helpful
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Mr. Helpful
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,526
Fulton County, PA
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You're kind of stuck with the vertical rear u-joint location where it is. That's determined by the type of rear and tire size. A 9" with a 32" tire is around 13 3/4" off the ground. If you are able to install the engine/trans assembly in a location that allows the operating angles to be correct, while having the trans centerline parallel with the pinion centerline, that's great.
The "chart" is great except that it doesn't consider that the pinion centerline could be higher than the trans centerline with the front of the engine higher than the front u-joint. I've worked on plenty of lowered and backhalved cars with the engine/trans on stock mounts and angled down a couple of degrees or more front to rear. In order to get the pinion parallel with the trans, the pinion angle would have to go positive (definitely not acceptable). A lot of these cars end up with a "broken back" configuration to keep the pinon angle negative.
If the car was built with the driveline stringlined from the front of the crank, through the center of the trans, to the center of the pinion, it makes it easy. Most cars weren't and you have to work with what you have to maintain the pinion angle where it needs to be. Not a lot of wiggle room with the pinion angle. At some point, you have to live with it or move the engine/trans mounts. Stock front clip and/or stock floors? That makes it even tougher.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: CMcAllister]
#1618487
05/14/14 06:17 PM
05/14/14 06:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
dizuster
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
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Quote:
I've worked on plenty of lowered and backhalved cars with the engine/trans on stock mounts and angled down a couple of degrees or more front to rear. In order to get the pinion parallel with the trans, the pinion angle would have to go positive (definitely not acceptable).
Why is it definitely not acceptable? I don't understand exactly why the car would care...
If the pinion and output shaft are parallel... the angles HAVE to be the same. They could both be 2 degree's... or they might both be 10 degree's. But they are equal.
What the circle track article referenced above showed on the dyno that having both of them at 10 degree's to the driveshaft, is better then having the front at 10 degree's and the rear at 0.
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: CMcAllister]
#1618488
05/14/14 07:27 PM
05/14/14 07:27 PM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
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Quote:
You're kind of stuck with the vertical rear u-joint location where it is. That's determined by the type of rear and tire size. A 9" with a 32" tire is around 13 3/4" off the ground. If you are able to install the engine/trans assembly in a location that allows the operating angles to be correct, while having the trans centerline parallel with the pinion centerline, that's great.
The "chart" is great except that it doesn't consider that the pinion centerline could be higher than the trans centerline with the front of the engine higher than the front u-joint. I've worked on plenty of lowered and backhalved cars with the engine/trans on stock mounts and angled down a couple of degrees or more front to rear. In order to get the pinion parallel with the trans, the pinion angle would have to go positive (definitely not acceptable). A lot of these cars end up with a "broken back" configuration to keep the pinon angle negative.
If the car was built with the driveline stringlined from the front of the crank, through the center of the trans, to the center of the pinion, it makes it easy. Most cars weren't and you have to work with what you have to maintain the pinion angle where it needs to be. Not a lot of wiggle room with the pinion angle. At some point, you have to live with it or move the engine/trans mounts. Stock front clip and/or stock floors? That makes it even tougher.
As long as the trans and pinion centerline angles are equal and opposite what does it matter if the pinion centerline is above or below the trans centerline?
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: dizuster]
#1618489
05/14/14 08:17 PM
05/14/14 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Assuming we don't have the option to change crossmembers, ride heights, or anything else...
So if you have a trans that has 2 degree's to the driveshaft.
Options/opinions are:
1) Give the pinion 2 degree's (under load) to be equal and opposite of the trans.
or
2) Give the pinion 0 degree's under load "to the driveshaft so at least 1 of the joints is optimized.
That's basically the two opinions we're talking about here right?
 Number 1 is the correct method. Number 2 is the Incorrect method.
You Cant optimize 1 ujount angle. They Work in sink with one another.
Sure you have one Less angle, But thats a Bad thing. Yes it will work. But its working in a bind eating HP.
The Type of Vids I referred to earlier can and will Clearly show this. Wish I could Link them.
#1 The Best Angle is No angle. #1
#2 Next would be Parallel angles on seperate planes #2 "80% of us'
"3 There isnt a #3 IMO But if there must be, Measure off the shaft, its workable, but a guess.
 No flared temper here either 
Just the Tech Facts. 
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Sport440]
#1618490
05/14/14 08:28 PM
05/14/14 08:28 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Assuming we don't have the option to change crossmembers, ride heights, or anything else...
So if you have a trans that has 2 degree's to the driveshaft.
Options/opinions are:
1) Give the pinion 2 degree's (under load) to be equal and opposite of the trans.
or
2) Give the pinion 0 degree's under load "to the driveshaft so at least 1 of the joints is optimized.
That's basically the two opinions we're talking about here right?
Number 1 is the correct method. Number 2 is the Incorrect method.
You Cant optimize 1 ujount angle. They Work in sink with one another.
Sure you have one Less angle, But thats a Bad thing. Yes it will work. But its working in a bind eating HP.
The Type of Vids I referred to earlier can and will Clearly show this. Wish I could Link them.
#1 The Best Angle is No angle. #1
#2 Next would be Parallel angles on seperate planes #2 "80% of us'
"3 There isnt a #3 IMO But if there must be, Measure off the shaft, its workable, but a guess.
No flared temper here either
Just the Tech Facts.
I'll stick with the way I do it... thats the best
way... so everything is in line and zero hp taken..
so this is the last post for me on this crap
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1618491
05/14/14 08:50 PM
05/14/14 08:50 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'll stick with the way I do it... thats the best
way... so everything is in line and zero hp taken..
so this is the last post for me on this crap
Mike, Yep that is the Best way as per my post #1
Also, I think you interpreted that circle track dyno test wrong.
When they used 0 degrees pinion that was with the shaft.
Not the tranny/shaft/pinion like you thought, That would be best.
Its when they "added angle" to make the joints more parallel to the two seperate planes that they got more HP. Understandable IMO.
That was my interpretation.
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1618493
05/15/14 02:16 AM
05/15/14 02:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
Yep......I am out as well. This has wasted enough of my time. I know what works for me and I will continue to do so.
As far as the statement above about the trans being 2* down, meaning the rear would have to be 2* up and somebody thinking that was CORRECT just because angles were equal on both ends. Try that in a high HP hard leaving car and let me know how it goes. Just make sure you have good loops and some extra parts.......LOL!!!
Monte
The Term used was "Under load", so your numbers would be correct Plus "Equal and Opposite" angles. Witch would make them Ideal and parallel under load.
It was just a example of a perfect scenario of two different planes of the two centerlines that we stock bodied cars see.
A perfect scenario of a Wrong example was #2 where the angle of the pinion was 0 with the shaft, but not with the tranny.
U joints dont work that way, they will be in a bind and eat HP.
Those are the Facts Mam
or maybe just my opinion of the facts.
Everthing is fine though 10 years + going on, the two pinion angle camps have never seen eye to eye. But we still get along.
In reality, our street/race car pinion angles will be so dynamic in pinion movement, that your two methods of choice wont make a whole lot of difference.
But technically/factually U joints work together and they want to be in sync., working in Parallel angles. Whether it be straight or on different planes. If there not, they are binding. We set Pinion angle to Best get them there under load.
This is a Fact, not a Opinion.
IMO, This part of it, should never ever be the Debate part of it.  
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Sport440]
#1618494
05/15/14 02:47 AM
05/15/14 02:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Nope........if it was FACT as you say, there would not be two obviously opposing sides. As with most everything, it is strictly opinion as to what guys thinks works the best.
You can show me all the charts, graphs, diagrams and anything else you want, but that doesn't make it fact. It makes it the opinion of the guy that drew them.
And facts or not, try the trans down, pinion up scenario that was mentioned above with any significant offset and a high hp car will spit out driveline parts faster than you can fix them. And while this result may not be a fact, it is something I KNOW will happen.
Monte
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1618495
05/15/14 09:33 AM
05/15/14 09:33 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
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Quote:
Nope........if it was FACT as you say, there would not be two obviously opposing sides. As with most everything, it is strictly opinion as to what guys thinks works the best.
You can show me all the charts, graphs, diagrams and anything else you want, but that doesn't make it fact. It makes it the opinion of the guy that drew them.
And facts or not, try the trans down, pinion up scenario that was mentioned above with any significant offset and a high hp car will spit out driveline parts faster than you can fix them. And while this result may not be a fact, it is something I KNOW will happen.
Monte
http://www.rosslertrans.com/Pinion%20angle.htm
I guess somebody better contact these guys and let them know that they need to get their act together and correct the misleading information they have provided to guys running their transmissions in very high horsepower applications before they get swarmed with lawsuits from guys who have spit driveline components.
I've also been told by a DC bible thumper that I shouldn't use this method because Rossler is a GM guy, anyone who would make such a statement just reinforces the fact that they are an IDIOT!
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Re: WHAT IS THE TOOL TO SET PINION ANGLES
[Re: Sport440]
#1618496
05/15/14 09:41 AM
05/15/14 09:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
496 A-body
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 369
Indy
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Quote:
Quote:
Yep......I am out as well. This has wasted enough of my time. I know what works for me and I will continue to do so.
As far as the statement above about the trans being 2* down, meaning the rear would have to be 2* up and somebody thinking that was CORRECT just because angles were equal on both ends. Try that in a high HP hard leaving car and let me know how it goes. Just make sure you have good loops and some extra parts.......LOL!!!
Monte
The Term used was "Under load", so your numbers would be correct Plus "Equal and Opposite" angles. Witch would make them Ideal and parallel under load.
It was just a example of a perfect scenario of two different planes of the two centerlines that we stock bodied cars see.
A perfect scenario of a Wrong example was #2 where the angle of the pinion was 0 with the shaft, but not with the tranny.
U joints dont work that way, they will be in a bind and eat HP.
Those are the Facts Mam
or maybe just my opinion of the facts.
Everthing is fine though 10 years + going on, the two pinion angle camps have never seen eye to eye. But we still get along.
In reality, our street/race car pinion angles will be so dynamic in pinion movement, that your two methods of choice wont make a whole lot of difference.
But technically/factually U joints work together and they want to be in sync., working in Parallel angles. Whether it be straight or on different planes. If there not, they are binding. We set Pinion angle to Best get them there under load.
This is a Fact, not a Opinion.
IMO, This part of it, should never ever be the Debate part of it.
2° trans down and 2° pinion up is parallel and the relative pinion angle would be 0° under load...Not 2° nose up which is what I think some of these guys are interpreting it as...drive shaft angle is irrelevant as u-joint angle will be equal and opposite at both joints.
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