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Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: ntsqd] #1606581
05/10/14 02:30 PM
05/10/14 02:30 PM
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RylisPro Offline OP
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Did you mean something like this?
One negative thing is that it would add a bunch of front end weight and that is what I am definitely trying to avoid


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Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: RylisPro] #1606582
05/10/14 05:00 PM
05/10/14 05:00 PM
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Quote:


Did you mean something like this?
One negative thing is that it would add a bunch of front end weight and that is what I am definitely trying to avoid





No. I wouldn't do that.

The chassis ends at the front K-member bolt. Anything forward of that is just fluff or because the motor is in the way (which it is of course).

So you do what you can to get your structure as close to the front K-member bolts as possible.

Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: autoxcuda] #1606583
05/10/14 08:09 PM
05/10/14 08:09 PM
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Dunlap, Il
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What amount of stiffening would an engine plate provide? If any?

Engine plate

Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: keyser soze] #1606584
05/10/14 09:37 PM
05/10/14 09:37 PM
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Quote:

What amount of stiffening would an engine plate provide? If any?

Engine plate




If you run it with rubber bushings...No stiffening at all.

You can make it a stressed member if you integrate it into to the cage and frame. Needs to be basically locked and pinned in place. IMHO, not just typically bolted in place. Both holes need to ride tightly on the shoulder of the through bolt and fits so tight it needs to be tapped in.

And the thickness of the Magnum Force place is too thin for a stressed member.

Here's one we build that was fairly stout. We were in mild accidents and it bent the plate. That was sort of a downfall of the plate.



IMHO, this is a little thin on the chassis tab. but there is a lateral support gusset that you can't see.

Last edited by autoxcuda; 05/10/14 09:43 PM.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: autoxcuda] #1606585
05/11/14 01:25 AM
05/11/14 01:25 AM
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IMHO, if you run a tube cage I don't think you need to run the inner fender braces.

Here's a rough sketch idea of mine. Trying to route triangulation into the front chassis box. Trying to resist twist.

I don't think you could run a straight cross bar from the front k-member bolt area to the other side. I'm pretty sure that goes right through the crank pulley.

Last edited by autoxcuda; 05/11/14 05:38 PM.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: autoxcuda] #1606586
05/11/14 12:19 PM
05/11/14 12:19 PM
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upper So. CA
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As noted I wouldn't put the X any further fwd than necessary. If there simply isn't room btwn the engine and the radiator for it then fwd of the radiator is the likely only option left. Recall that I said to put the tube intersections where the loads are. That's also what autoxcuda is talking about, feed the K member bolt loads into the tube structure directly. That requires notching into the OE box section or something to get right to the plates that the bolts thread into.

Ideally those bends in the upper tubes would also have a tube running from them to the center of the cowl/dash bar (the "export brace" in Mustang terms), but only if the cowl bar can feed those loads further into the tube structure. I.e. if it too is bent at the center to meet those tubes at the cowl and re-direct the loads to the windshield post tubes, which then distribute the loads throughout the rest of the structure. It's 3 dimensional truss design, think in terms of triangles - anything else will flex.

On a couple drag cars that I've worked on I built a fore/aft engine locator bracket that bolted to the OE engine mounts and had a pretty serious strut that bolted btwn it and and somewhere on the chassis - specifically to stop the plate from bending due to engine inertia.

Last edited by ntsqd; 05/11/14 12:21 PM.

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Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: autoxcuda] #1606587
05/11/14 04:53 PM
05/11/14 04:53 PM
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Quote:

IMHO, if you run a tube cage I don't think you need to run the inner fender braces.

Here's a rough sketch idea of mine. Trying to route triangulation into the front chassis box. Trying to resist twist.

I don't think you could run a straight cross bar from the front k-member bolt area to the other side. I'm pretty sure that goes right through the crank pulley.




That's a pretty comprehensive design IMO. Three areas I would like to see tweaked, if possible. 1. the short front upper 8"? connector, reduced to close to zero. 2. The L and R front upper down legs make a 45Deg? angle down towards the front, just make a straight tube starting the down angle at the last node, 3. At this same node add an angled tube heading back to lower chassis/firewall area.

Not sure but does any of this tubimg need to meet and dia or thickness requirements since not part of the cage?

Not sure how without any bolted connections, motor could be removed from above. But the design looks solid.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: jcc] #1606588
05/11/14 05:14 PM
05/11/14 05:14 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

IMHO, if you run a tube cage I don't think you need to run the inner fender braces.

Here's a rough sketch idea of mine. Trying to route triangulation into the front chassis box. Trying to resist twist.

I don't think you could run a straight cross bar from the front k-member bolt area to the other side. I'm pretty sure that goes right through the crank pulley.




That's a pretty comprehensive design IMO. Three areas I would like to see tweaked, if possible. 1. the short front upper 8"? connector, reduced to close to zero. 2. The L and R front upper down legs make a 45Deg? angle down towards the front, just make a straight tube starting the down angle at the last node, 3. At this same node add an angled tube heading back to lower chassis/firewall area.

...snip...




Yea, I considered a straight tube from the cowl to the front K-member bolt. But I wanted something higher to bolt the front X and crossbar to. Opps I forgot the crossbar! <-I went back and fixed my drawing.

I agree that going up and turning down doesn't prove much without the cross bar. But I know you will run right through the upper control arm mount if you go straight. And maybe get into tire clearance issue in an exteme situation. So it will need some sort of turn to it to miss things in the way.


Last edited by autoxcuda; 05/11/14 08:51 PM.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: jcc] #1606589
05/11/14 05:25 PM
05/11/14 05:25 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

IMHO, if you run a tube cage I don't think you need to run the inner fender braces.

Here's a rough sketch idea of mine. Trying to route triangulation into the front chassis box. Trying to resist twist.

I don't think you could run a straight cross bar from the front k-member bolt area to the other side. I'm pretty sure that goes right through the crank pulley.




....

Not sure but does any of this tubimg need to meet and dia or thickness requirements since not part of the cage?

Not sure how without any bolted connections, motor could be removed from above. But the design looks solid.




Engine crossbars generally don't have thickness specs. They are not really a safety deal, mostly performance deal.

In the pictures I posted here of the motor plate, that is initial assymbly at the beginning of the season. There are a system of crossbars yet to be bolted on. If you look closely there are small tubes going through the large roll cage tubes. Crossbars (we called it a spider web) bolts to those through tubes.

Yes the crossbars bolt on. And most connections are not bolted with a thru bolt connecting overlapping flanges.

Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: autoxcuda] #1606590
05/11/14 09:07 PM
05/11/14 09:07 PM
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

IMHO, if you run a tube cage I don't think you need to run the inner fender braces.

Here's a rough sketch idea of mine. Trying to route triangulation into the front chassis box. Trying to resist twist.

I don't think you could run a straight cross bar from the front k-member bolt area to the other side. I'm pretty sure that goes right through the crank pulley.




....

Not sure but does any of this tubimg need to meet and dia or thickness requirements since not part of the cage?

Not sure how without any bolted connections, motor could be removed from above. But the design looks solid.




Engine crossbars generally don't have thickness specs. They are not really a safety deal, mostly performance deal.

In the pictures I posted here of the motor plate, that is initial assymbly at the beginning of the season. There are a system of crossbars yet to be bolted on. If you look closely there are small tubes going through the large roll cage tubes. Crossbars (we called it a spider web) bolts to those through tubes.

Yes the crossbars bolt on. And most connections are not bolted with a thru bolt connecting overlapping flanges.




Here's what it looks like with the center cage bolted in.

We went to smaller grade 8 bolts becasue of weight and that the previous years 3/4" grade 8 bolts were overkill compared the bars they connected too.

The two very narrow bars are just to support the radiator.



This was a one-off all-out chassis built to win another track championship (it did) and run for national championship (close but not). Things got wacky on this car. For instance, the little welded in tubes that the cross bar bolts go thru the roll bar are machined thin in the center to reduce weight.


Last edited by autoxcuda; 05/11/14 09:15 PM.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: autoxcuda] #1606591
05/12/14 02:35 PM
05/12/14 02:35 PM
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Upon further reflection, the 1 of 3 "tweaks" I mentioned, "Three areas I would like to see tweaked, if possible. 1. the short front upper 8"? connector, reduced to close to zero", this one might be a stiffer solution, but likely would have a huge stress concentration, and prone to fatigue and failure, and therefore not an improvement over what you had napkin drawn. Nevermind.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: RylisPro] #1606592
06/12/14 07:19 PM
06/12/14 07:19 PM
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Since I am getting X bars welded in the doorways would it be beneficial to remove the door beams?
I hear it would cut out approx. 25 lbs. per side

Thanks


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Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: RylisPro] #1606593
06/12/14 09:39 PM
06/12/14 09:39 PM
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If it was my car, yes.


Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: RylisPro] #1606594
06/13/14 08:00 PM
06/13/14 08:00 PM
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Quote:

Since I am getting X bars welded in the doorways would it be beneficial to remove the door beams?
I hear it would cut out approx. 25 lbs. per side

Thanks





Are there any vehicles that have a combination of hinges and latches that enables the door to contribute the the chassis stiffness?

Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: RichV] #1606595
06/14/14 12:18 AM
06/14/14 12:18 AM
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I took 14? pics 3-12-08 of the mopar e bodies at a Sebring Historic race. The last pic is just for icing, it's the captive spring loaded quickly outlawed lug nut system. And I think cage design has progressed from this era, and in the one with the back seat cooler, you see the 3rd link mounting point interior intrusion.

Last edited by jcc; 06/14/14 12:34 AM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: jcc] #1606596
06/14/14 12:18 AM
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#2

Last edited by jcc; 06/14/14 12:19 AM.

Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: jcc] #1606597
06/14/14 12:20 AM
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8175602-P3120064.jpg (271 downloads)

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Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: jcc] #1606598
06/14/14 12:21 AM
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Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: jcc] #1606599
06/14/14 12:22 AM
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Re: Trans Am E-body roll cage pics? [Re: jcc] #1606600
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