Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: MadMopars]
#1573466
02/03/14 03:17 AM
02/03/14 03:17 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Just curious, has anyone ever swapped mufflers and picked up E.T.? If so how much, what mufflers, what size exhaust and whats your approximate horsepower? I've seen dyno claims that say there is power to be gained by getting rid of my Flowmasters but I'm not sure I buy it, at least in my application. Thoughts?
Your Flowmasters are one of the worst muffs out there and yes ET can be had from just muffs... I like Dynomax Super Turbos
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1573468
02/03/14 10:39 AM
02/03/14 10:39 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,178 Indy
FlyFish
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,178
Indy
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I think it really depends on the motor. For example, my car runs almost the same with or without the exhaust...just a couple hundredths slower with the exhaust on, and that it probably due to the added weight (about 25 lbs or so). My exhaust exits just before the rear tire, and I pull it off the car from time to time, not much different in ET, just louder....my exhaust consists of 3" flowmasters with 3" pipes.
67 Barracuda street car, 408, e85, 1.38 60', 6.44 @105.9 in the 1/8 mile, 10.19 @130.5 in the 1/4...so far....
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: FlyFish]
#1573469
02/03/14 11:17 AM
02/03/14 11:17 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942 Metro Detroit
OUTLAWD
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,942
Metro Detroit
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Try measuring back pressure, or drop the exhaust and make a pass, see if it picks up. Every car will want something a little different.
Dropping the dual 3" w/ 2 chamber flows gained 0.1 sec on my Belv, running mid 11's
Faster, Faster until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death...
71 Swinger - slowly collecting dust/parts 66 Belv. II - just a streetcar 88 Mustang - turbo LS beater
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#1573471
02/03/14 11:31 AM
02/03/14 11:31 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,698 jersey
Spaceman Spiff
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,698
jersey
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The car in the article above is now in the low 11's, with the same exhaust as when this article was written.
526 cubes of angry wedge, pushbutton shifted, 9 passenger killer!
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: MadMopars]
#1573472
02/03/14 12:51 PM
02/03/14 12:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,814 Benton, IL.
DaveRS23
Master of nothing...
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Master of nothing...
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,814
Benton, IL.
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There are so many variables on this. You won't know what your combo likes until you try a thing or two. Certainly the more flow out of the engine, the more critical the exhaust becomes.
Personally, I run electric cut-outs on all my cars. That way, I can have my quiet and my noise with no compromise on performance. And they are a blast at shows and cruises.
Master, again and still
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Spaceman Spiff]
#1573473
02/03/14 01:25 PM
02/03/14 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301 Tucson AZ,
MadMopars
OP
pro stock
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OP
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,301
Tucson AZ,
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Quote:
http://www.boyleworks.com/ta400/psp/exhaust.html
Interesting read. Although I really like the sound of the Flowmaster's it's to bad they perform so poorly in comparison to others. I wish they hadn't tested on a single exhaust application. Not really apples to apples, but still useful none the less.
I find it hard to believe there was so much gained by stepping up to an X pipe. That may be worth looking into on my car.
Quote:
Personally, I run electric cut-outs on all my cars. That way, I can have my quiet and my noise with no compromise on performance. And they are a blast at shows and cruises.
I have cut outs on there now. I just haven't opened them up in years. I will probably open them up next trip out just to see how restrictive the exhaust really is.
It's a toss up for me. I know that the car runs better with the tunnel ram on and the exhaust opened up but I'm trying to build a "Fast Street Car". If I open the exhaust and put the tunnel ram on I will have a "Slow Race Car". I use both of those terms loosely in either direction.
I think cruising around and going to the track bring on two different mentality's. On the street it's cool when it looks like a race car. At the track it's cool when it looks like a street car.
I'll continue to struggle with my conflicting predicament.
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: 383man]
#1573476
02/03/14 04:11 PM
02/03/14 04:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,082 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,082
Tulsa OK
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I run a 3" exhaust that reduces to 2.5" after the mufflers and out the back. I took off flowmasters and replaced them with magnaflows and picked up 1-2mph right off. It also shined some light on some fuel delivery problems I was having as it went waayyy rich when i swapped the mufflers. I have since taken some fuel out and still need to take more and the car has picked up considerably. It was obviously constipated with the flowmasters on there.
This is on a 450-500HP 360. The car is also a lot quieter and it sounds better IMO.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: MadMopars]
#1573478
02/04/14 12:26 PM
02/04/14 12:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,496 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,496
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Like said before, there's a lot of variables. There's no question a straight through style muffler flows better than a flowmaster, but will making the switch make your car run faster? Maybe, maybe not. One of my old 440s w/ a 509 cam and ported 915s ran 11.40s at 117 mph in my cuda through 3" exhaust and 2 chamber flowmasters. It ran no better w/ open headers...and yes I tried to tune for the difference. My last 440 ran 10.40 at 129 mph through 4" exhaust w/ 2 chamber flowmasters. Open headers made no difference. I don't think it would have needed a 4" system if I had better flowing mufflers to run that. I just happen to like the sound of Flowmasters. Having said that, I have seen guys change from flowmasters to a straight through style muffler (Dynomax Ultraflow, Magnaflow, or Hooker Max Flow) and have the car run faster. My current hemi combo loses a little over a tenth and about 1.5-2 mph (compared to open headers) when I run it w/ the 4" H pipe system w/ a pair of one chamber flowmasters....but the system is heavy and hemis hate mufflers (generally).
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#1573479
02/04/14 01:11 PM
02/04/14 01:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 482 Marysville Wa
moparfan
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 482
Marysville Wa
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My demon has TTI headers and a 3" x pipe and mufflers at the rear axle, switched from a 2 chamber Flow Master to Dynomax ultra flows same day at the track, probably an hour apart. no noticable difference in et or MPH, it's quieter with the ultraflows though.
Like said above, lots of varibles.
2017 Challenger R/T Scat Pack Shaker 2021 T/A 392 1970 Challenger R/T 383,727, 3.55, (Wife's car) 1970 Challenger R/T SE 440-4, 4-speed, 4.10 Dana 1972 Dodge Demon 396 W-2,904, 4.30, 10.660 @ 125.85 2020 Hellcat redeye
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#1573480
02/04/14 01:14 PM
02/04/14 01:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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When I was back in the lab we tested multiple style and manufactures of muffs... we did it on the dyno for a comparison.. we took a few extra readings besides the HP.. we took back pressure, DB, and did a cost.. this was about 10 years ago... back then we were trying to get more power, quieter exhaust and low weight along with cost savings.... dont ask what the numbers were.. I dont recall... they were just numbers to me that had to be compiled to submit... all I remembered was the flowmax was on the bottom of the list for multiple reasons and HP was one
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1573481
02/04/14 01:17 PM
02/04/14 01:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,866 North of Detroit
HemiDart68
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 4,866
North of Detroit
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my 605 hemi was almost a tenth faster through the muffs. 4 inch straight pipes into borla XR1, turned down in front of rear ladder bar crossmember.
In God we trust, all others pay cash.
www.lightnens.com (Home of the world's fastest Paint Job)
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1573486
02/04/14 02:53 PM
02/04/14 02:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
When you guys run open headers do you put collector extension on? Dulcich did an extensive header comparison awhile back on a hot 440 (Hooker super comp headers I think) and a proper length collector extension was worth a ridiculous amount of power over the factory collector length, something like 40-60 HP, but only in the lower to mid range level, it didn't seem to make a huge difference in the upper RPM's. I think the engine dyno'ed in the 600+HP range.
Yep... the proper collector length is for the torque... a shelf header doesnt have anywhere near the proper length collector(even if its the right diameter)... shelf headers are basically made to fit and sure dont make peak HP or torque... but they do get the exhaust out
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: d3m0n]
#1573487
02/04/14 03:49 PM
02/04/14 03:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,741 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,741
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
i have a demon with a 440 . i run pro parts headers an H pipe and 3" flows dumped at the axle. my car has tons of torque and bottom end . i droped the exaust and jetted up 4 sizes went to the track didnt get to make any changes but the car lost all bottom end it was very lazy . im going to run exaust next time i go but the car felt slower to me maybe i jetted up to much i dont know?
You probally did jet it up to much, go back and try it again with the same jetting with and without the exhaust system on it Usually, when removing the back pressure of the exhaust, you jet the carb. down one or two jet sizes to make the car go faster BTW, by jetting the carb. up with the open exhaust you did prove your fuel system has enough volume to slow the car down, which is a good test It is far safer to jet the motor up to slow the car down first and then jet it down a little bit at a time(one jet size at a time, not four ) until it starts to loose MPH in 1/4 Let us know your results
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1573488
02/04/14 03:56 PM
02/04/14 03:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,924 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,924
Weddington, N.C.
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That's because the high velocity pulses of the tubes exiting into the collecter create a 'draw' (Bernoulli effect) behind them felt by the adjacent tubes. If there's not a sufficient amount of downstream volume the draw "scavenging" is minimized or negated.
flowmaster theory is also related to creating a low pressure area that draws (creates a negative pressure) on the upstream pipe, the CFM flow of pumping air through a muffler tells "A" story, but not the whole story....so just like flowing an intake port...take raw CFM data with a grain of salt.
Last edited by Streetwize; 02/04/14 04:02 PM.
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Twostick]
#1573489
02/04/14 04:03 PM
02/04/14 04:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
I think 18" give or take not very much was the magic number depending on what was less than ideal in your combo.
Kevin
Its usually in the 16"-18" range but each engine will vary some... if you have a slip on or a bolt on extension you can start long and make passes cutting off a 1/2" at a time till you start to loose the 60'.. also tweak in the jetting on each change to make sure your in the proper tune... once you go to far then you know the length you need... you can weld on any length you cut off or buy new extensions... I make all my extensions and weld them on when the job is completed ... come spring time I'll be adding some electric dumps to my exhaust... I'm lazy so a flip of the switch I can reduce the back pressure
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1573490
02/04/14 04:05 PM
02/04/14 04:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,496 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,496
Marion, South Carolina [><]
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Quote:
When you guys run open headers do you put collector extension on? Dulcich did an extensive header comparison awhile back on a hot 440 (Hooker super comp headers I think) and a proper length collector extension was worth a ridiculous amount of power over the factory collector length, something like 40-60 HP, but only in the lower to mid range level, it didn't seem to make a huge difference in the upper RPM's. I think the engine dyno'ed in the 600+HP range.
I did not add extensions on the 2 tests I did w/ my 440 motors. On my hemi, I typically run a pair of 4" bullet race mufflers that I slip right onto the collectors...basically a low restriction muffled collector extension if you will. It runs basically the same w/ them or w/ open collectors. It makes a lot more power than the 440s I ran before though...the 440s would have probably benefitted from the extra collector length, whereas my hemi may not really need it.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon 340, no drivetrain, on blocks behind the barn '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Streetwize]
#1573491
02/04/14 04:07 PM
02/04/14 04:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
That's because the high velocity pulses of the tubes exiting into the collecter create a 'draw' (Bernoulli effect) behind them felt by the adjacent tubes. If there's not a sufficient amount of downstream volume the draw "scavenging" is minimized or negated.
flowmaster theory is also related to creating a low pressure area that draws (creates a negative pressure) on the upstream pipe, the CFM flow of pumping air through a muffler tells "A" story, but not the whole story....so just like flowing an intake port...take raw CFM data with a grain of salt.
Yeah I know whats causing the increase and also the effect from changing the lengths
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Streetwize]
#1573492
02/04/14 09:00 PM
02/04/14 09:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,903 Florida
Locomotion
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,903
Florida
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Quote:
That's because the high velocity pulses of the tubes exiting into the collecter create a 'draw' (Bernoulli effect) behind them felt by the adjacent tubes. If there's not a sufficient amount of downstream volume the draw "scavenging" is minimized or negated.
flowmaster theory is also related to creating a low pressure area that draws (creates a negative pressure) on the upstream pipe, the CFM flow of pumping air through a muffler tells "A" story, but not the whole story....so just like flowing an intake port...take raw CFM data with a grain of salt.
Would it be logical to assume that a properly designed X-pipe creates the "Bernoulli effect" at the junction as well?
What is the theory behind "merge collector" styles manufactured by Lelchook, Burns, etc.?
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Locomotion]
#1573493
02/04/14 09:11 PM
02/04/14 09:11 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
That's because the high velocity pulses of the tubes exiting into the collecter create a 'draw' (Bernoulli effect) behind them felt by the adjacent tubes. If there's not a sufficient amount of downstream volume the draw "scavenging" is minimized or negated.
flowmaster theory is also related to creating a low pressure area that draws (creates a negative pressure) on the upstream pipe, the CFM flow of pumping air through a muffler tells "A" story, but not the whole story....so just like flowing an intake port...take raw CFM data with a grain of salt.
Would it be logical to assume that a properly designed X-pipe creates the "Bernoulli effect" at the junction as well?
What is the theory behind "merge collector" styles manufactured by Lelchook, Burns, etc.?
The X or H shuttles the pulse back and forth so it doesnt really disrupt the flow... the merge if setup proper for the engine will increase the velocity in the primary to create a better draw on the overlap in the cam for a better filling of the next charge
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: Locomotion]
#1573494
02/05/14 06:10 PM
02/05/14 06:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,166 Left Coast
BobR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 8,166
Left Coast
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Quote:
Quote:
That's because the high velocity pulses of the tubes exiting into the collecter create a 'draw' (Bernoulli effect) behind them felt by the adjacent tubes. If there's not a sufficient amount of downstream volume the draw "scavenging" is minimized or negated.
flowmaster theory is also related to creating a low pressure area that draws (creates a negative pressure) on the upstream pipe, the CFM flow of pumping air through a muffler tells "A" story, but not the whole story....so just like flowing an intake port...take raw CFM data with a grain of salt.
Would it be logical to assume that a properly designed X-pipe creates the "Bernoulli effect" at the junction as well?
What is the theory behind "merge collector" styles manufactured by Lelchook, Burns, etc.?
The merge, if done correctly, increases exhaust speed. The pinch point is a venturi. It normally takes a lot of testing to see gain but there usually is some. Look at a pro stock header.
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: 70Dustmite440]
#1573500
02/08/14 12:54 PM
02/08/14 12:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,924 Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,924
Weddington, N.C.
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The Pinch point in a merge collector acts sort of like a check valve or more accurately a "backflow preventer"....the 4 high velocity "slugs" of header pipe exhaust are "rifle shot" past the pinch point in a merge collector and directly into a larger diameter downstream pipe, so the pinch in effect works like a check valve since the expanding ( and as a result slowing) exhaust won't very easily push back very effectively against the narrow/smaller diameter upstream pinch. Not quite the same means of achieving the Bernoulli effect of a "conventional" header collector, but it seems to be more effective on higher RPM N/A Race motors that operate 100% of the time at RPMs above their torque peak. Mufflers, headers/collectors, the key is all the same, trying to get that slug of spent gas out of the cylinder and past the exhaust valve as efficiently (and quickly) as possible for AS LONG AS POSSIBLE (keep the VE up) in the RPM range you want/need the motor to run in. For a muffled true dual-purpose car the exhaust is always going to be a compromise in one way or the other (optimum sizing/routings/sound dB's/or overall weight) Open headers with an optimum length collector is going to be as good as you can get, Guys who have it right don't drop a significant amount of ET with mufflers or without, although the tune to get there may still wind-up being a bit different. A number of experts all told me thoughout the years (and I've found it to be true) that the first 4-6 inches of pipe past the head flange are far more important than all that happens beyond it. In a production chassis the bends required in the initial primary tubes (off the flange) are almost always a compromise.
Last edited by Streetwize; 02/08/14 01:02 PM.
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1573502
02/08/14 05:44 PM
02/08/14 05:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
A number of experts all told me thoughout the years (and I've found it to be true) that the first 4-6 inches of pipe past the head flange are far more important than all that happens beyond it. In a production chassis the bends required in the initial primary tubes (off the flange) are almost always a compromise.
This is interesting, that sounds like it would make the best option fenderwell headers, which they don't make for any of us other than big block A body guys now. But everyone ran them back in the day. It'd be interesting to see the dyno results of a fenderwell vs an underchassis header of the same size and tube length on the same engine.
On a chassis car I always try to get 1 cyl volume before I hit the tangent point of the first bend.. a production car thats pretty much impossible to do so they sacrifice that part
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Re: Mufflers... Any E.T gain from swapping?
[Re: 383man]
#1573504
02/09/14 02:33 PM
02/09/14 02:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,136 Mo.
racerx
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 4,136
Mo.
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Quote:
Quote:
x2 Hey Ron what do you mean spaces the headers with washers over the flow masters?..............Yes please explain this?
Yes just as was said right where the 3 collector bolts bolt the collector to the header. Just take the bolts out and spread the header and collector apart and put the bolts back in with some washers in the gap on the bolts. Many guys around here did it years ago for the sound but I prefer a closed exh sound myself. But we did it with his car do see how much it slowed as we knew it had gone faster with open headers and it ran just as fast (11.40's) like this then it did with open headers. And this way you dont have to remove or hang the exh pipes out of the way. Ron
Hmm.....learn something new every day,never herd this b4....
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