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B1 Alum Block Combo - What do ya think? #1563699
01/15/14 08:16 PM
01/15/14 08:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline OP
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451Guy  Offline OP
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Alberta, Canada
I have gradually started to collect parts for an engine that I am hoping to build in the future. I am planning on putting this engine in my 71 Demon Super Street/ Hot Rod car. It is a 4 link back half car, 16 x 32 slick. It weighs just over 3000 lbs. My goal is to run 150 mph on the stop.

The hard parts that I have so far include a world aluminum 4.500 bore block. A set of B1 original heads, B1 intake, 1.8 Jesel intake rockers and 1.7 exhaust rockers, I also have some of the other required parts but nothing else that is important in the combination. My plan is to collect parts over the next few years so it is a clean canvas.

Head flow Numbers

lift int. ex.
.200 170 130
.300 257 178
.400 318 230
.500 359 273
.600 383 298
.700 405 311
.800 416 317

I have looked at all of the various strokes that are available and I was initially thinking about a 588 but I am now thinking about a 556 combination

I would accomplish this like this

10.720 Deck Height Block
4.500 Bore
4.375 Stroke
7.100 Rod
1.4325 Compression Height Piston (14:1 Compression)

Do you guys feel that this combo would accomplish my Goal??

Any real world experience would be welcomed. Also this is a combo that I have not seen too much of. Is there a reason or something that I am missing?

Last edited by 451Guy; 01/15/14 08:47 PM.

Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: 451Guy] #1563700
01/15/14 08:29 PM
01/15/14 08:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

I have gradually started to collect parts for an engine that I am hoping to build in the future. I am planning on putting this engine in my 71 Demon Super Street/ Hot Rod car. It is a 4 link back half car, 16 x 32 slick. It weighs just over 3000 lbs. My goal is to run 150 mph on the stop.

The hard parts that I have so far include a world aluminum 4.500 bore block. A set of B1 original heads, B1 intake, 1.8 Jesel intake rockers and 1.7 exhaust rockers, I also have some of the other required parts but nothing else that is important in the combination. My plan is to collect parts over the next few years so it is a clean canvas.

Head flow Numbers

lift int. ex.
.200 170 130
.300 257 178
.400 318 230
.500 359 273
.600 383 298
.700 405 311
.800 416 317

I have looked at all of the various strokes that are available and I was initially thinking about a 588 but I am now thinking about a 556 combination

I would accomplish this like this

10.720 Deck Height Block
4.500 Bore
4.375 Stroke
7.100 Rod
1.4325 Compression Height Piston (14:1 Compression)

Do you guys feel that this combo would accomplish my Goal??

Any real world experience would be welcomed. Also this is a combo that I have not seen too much of. Is there a reason or something that I am missing?




150 is basically 9.0 ET... being that your wanting
to run a short stroke(now days thats short) you will
need to rev it... so a good high stall converter will
help it... but you will need ABOUT 800hp... yes that
combo should make 800hp with no issue if you rev it

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1563701
01/15/14 08:40 PM
01/15/14 08:40 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline OP
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451Guy  Offline OP
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Alberta, Canada
I am not afraid of a little rpm. I am just thinking that i would rather a little shorter stroke and rpm it a little rather than deal with some of the windage and oil control issues that can happen with some of the real big cranks! I also race at altitude so I will need a little more power. Good air at our track is 3400 corrected alt.


Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: 451Guy] #1563702
01/15/14 08:59 PM
01/15/14 08:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,397
Carson City, Nevada
Biginchmopar Offline
pro stock
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Carson City, Nevada
If it were me I think a 572CID would be my first choice 4.50" bore x 4.50" stroke.

I know a 540CID would rip as well 4.50" bore x 4.25" stroke.

With the heads you have 900HP sould not be a problem.


Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: Biginchmopar] #1563703
01/15/14 09:06 PM
01/15/14 09:06 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
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Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
First off 150 on the STOP in S/ST is NOT a 9.0 you will need to be a good deal faster than that to carry 150 on the stop, even in great air. More like an 8.60. Not as easy to run that kind of MPH on the stop as it is off.

With you being 3000 you are going to need every bit of 1000hp to run 150 in good air consistently. We have a couple of fellow members running S/ST with B1 original deals, both cars run well in the 8's off the stop, one has yet to run 150mph and the other just made it in great air. Both cars IMO are over 950hp and I know one is at about your weight. There is also a member her with a car at 2800 with a big Predator(588 IIRC)that runs mid 150's. Running big MPH on the stop is not as easy as some folks seem to think for sure.

As for the combo. I am not a fan of the really big motors. I think everyone knows my junk is on the smallish side. I am also not sold on tall deck deals for various reasons either. But if ya wanna go big ya gotta go that way. Having said that it will take RPM to make that kind of power, the smaller the cubes the more RPM you will need to make the power. Just the way it is. Now that does not mean it cannot be reliable, IF you spend money on the right parts. i know of at least three cars out here that can all go 160 in S/ST. One is a 632, One is a 680"(car has run TS, SG, SC and S/ST and has a Wally in all), one is a 565 and the last one is a little ole 525


Well I just saw the 3400' deal and it will take you all of 1000 hp to hit 150. Once the DA starts going up it makes runnign that MPH even tougher,m if the track is 3400' then likely you will see 5-6500' regularly and that is a tall order to go 150f for sure.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: Al_Alguire] #1563704
01/15/14 09:16 PM
01/15/14 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Quote:

First off 150 on the STOP in S/ST is NOT a 9.0 you will need to be a good deal faster than that to carry 150 on the stop, even in great air. More like an 8.60. Not as easy to run that kind of MPH on the stop as it is off.

With you being 3000 you are going to need every bit of 1000hp to run 150 in good air consistently. We have a couple of fellow members running S/ST with B1 original deals, both cars run well in the 8's off the stop, one has yet to run 150mph and the other just made it in great air. Both cars IMO are over 950hp and I know one is at about your weight. There is also a member her with a car at 2800 with a big Predator(588 IIRC)that runs mid 150's. Running big MPH on the stop is not as easy as some folks seem to think for sure.

As for the combo. I am not a fan of the really big motors. I think everyone knows my junk is on the smallish side. I am also not sold on tall deck deals for various reasons either. But if ya wanna go big ya gotta go that way. Having said that it will take RPM to make that kind of power, the smaller the cubes the more RPM you will need to make the power. Just the way it is. Now that does not mean it cannot be reliable, IF you spend money on the right parts. i know of at least three cars out here that can all go 160 in S/ST. One is a 632, One is a 680"(car has run TS, SG, SC and S/ST and has a Wally in all), one is a 565 and the last one is a little ole 525




I didnt catch the SST so yeah it needs I think closer
to 165mph or higher, so thats closer to a 8.30 or so
and that takes a little over 1000 hp... I dont see
it doing that unless he turns over 9000 rpm
EDIT
and thats at a better elevation

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 01/15/14 09:19 PM.
Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1563705
01/15/14 09:49 PM
01/15/14 09:49 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline OP
mopar
451Guy  Offline OP
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Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
Al,

How high do you spin your motor? I would say that or elevation would be close to Vegas. Lots of our guys have gone there and they run similar ET's as here. What is the Super Street index adjusted to there. NHRA adjusted ours to 11.13 when there was a National Open here.


Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: 451Guy] #1563706
01/15/14 10:39 PM
01/15/14 10:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
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Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
We are at 11.05 here. I race Boise at 11.15, Fallon at 11.35 and Salt Lake now at 11.35 as well. Sounds like you are closer to Boise air. I have not run there a lot but only seen one car over 150 there.

It takes some steak to run 150 here for sure. For instance most cars come here and loose 3-4mph, and that is at the two races we have in the early spring and late fall. So the air is usually decent, 35-4500'. Also if your friends are here for the MATS that is usually about the best air we get all year. Typically here in the summer it will be closer to 6500-7500' DA

When I run my bucket of bolts all out I shift at 8300ish. But I do not have enough gear or converter and cross the line at 7300ish. When I run S/ST I shift at .5 and it crosses the stripe around the same RPM 7300ish. I make peak power at 7900 however. But we make good power from about 7000-8300. But mine is a short stroke low deck as well. Lite reciprocating weight IMO helps the car accelerate better than a big arm deal. Plus I don't have enough stroke to worry about hooking up the torque, cause I aint got none

Not saying you cannot do it but 150 is a big hill in S/ST. I have seen a few S/G guys crossover thinking it would be a cake walk since they go 155 in Gas.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: Al_Alguire] #1563707
01/15/14 11:47 PM
01/15/14 11:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
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dakotawilly Offline
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well said al,do your homework for sure,experience is much better than checkbook......I myself am working up a similar combo,but with a sheet metal ram and dominators,also dumping the iron block even though its a thick web 400 for a kb water block...

Last edited by dakotawilly; 01/15/14 11:54 PM.

SFI 25.5 depends,no leak,even at 213 mph....
Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: Al_Alguire] #1563708
01/15/14 11:49 PM
01/15/14 11:49 PM
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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camastomcat Offline
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Salt Lake City
With that air and a 3000# car, I assume with driver, I would go 572 unless you already have the crankshaft. If so, the 557 should still work well with those heads. Al knows more about stop MPH than I do, but with the right cam and perhaps another point of compression, you should easily be at or over 1000HP. BTW, make sure and check the main studs and the mainline of that block out very well. Good luck with your build.

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: camastomcat] #1563709
01/16/14 01:15 AM
01/16/14 01:15 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline OP
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Alberta, Canada
The beauty of were I am is that the rotating assembly has yet to be purchased. I have the ability to purchase what I think is best to accomplish what I am trying to do. I have to agree with Al that 150 in S/St where I live may be a little bit of a stretch.(he would know). With regards to the block at this point I have not checked the main line but I have already purchased the ARP replacement main stud kit.

I spoke with the fellow that did the heads and he told me that the heads were originally done for a low maintanance 540. He suggested that if I was going to go bigger cubic inch that he would suggest sending the heads back for a little more work and possibly an upgrade to titanium valves if I was going to optimize the the combination due to the size of cam that it would require.

If I do decide to go bigger then I may go to a 588. Based on the weight of the car I think that a little more torque would help.

I have also noticed as the cars get faster and end up on the stop longer the amount of mph that they lose from a full pass increases. I would only lose 1 - 2 max when the car would go 128 - 129 full out. Now I can go 140 all out and I am running 136 on the stop. If this is the case I am thinking I would need to go at least 156 on a full pass. Basically we are running out of track before we get to max mph.

Thanks guys for your responses. It is great to get some input from those that have done it! Some like Al have done it in Grand Style. Thanks for the input.


Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: camastomcat] #1563710
01/16/14 01:17 AM
01/16/14 01:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda Offline
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Happy Birthday Chris'sBarracuda  Offline
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Arizona
It's easy to do.. Just stay at a Holiday Inn and "BAM" you're there..

Yes, my motor dynoed right around 950 hp. And the car runs close to where it's supposed to "All Out" (8.70's @ 153+ --- 2800' - 3500'DA). Right at 3000 lbs.

But with the stop here in Phoenix, 10.90 @ 147.5 to 148 mph.. (same 2800' - 3500' DA)

In Vegas, 11.05 @ 145 mph.. Down 3 more mph.. Only about 1000' different in altitude but the Barometer is way down.. Results show this..

Also, out here in the deserts, there isn't much greenery so oxygen content is way down too.

This would be a 3000# car with a glide.. Problem is converters usually, because you are coming off the stop in high gear trying to move all that weight..

Some think it's so easy.. But I never see them out here racing..



Chris..

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1563711
01/16/14 02:07 AM
01/16/14 02:07 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline OP
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451Guy  Offline OP
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I have stayed at my share of Holiday Inns and I am still waiting for something good to happen

How big is your motor?

My car also has a glide and I am shifting on time.

With regards to the greeney. My car picked up 2 full tenths and four mph when I switched from new car sent air fresheners to the little pine tree. I am convinced its the extra oxygen from the little tree. I think I am about 62 trees away from going 150.


Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: 451Guy] #1563712
01/16/14 02:31 AM
01/16/14 02:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 515
geezer acres rest home
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dakotawilly Offline
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instead of the trees,turn the whole interior into a "chia",that should put your oxygen level at about 4000 ft below sea level

Last edited by dakotawilly; 01/16/14 02:36 AM.

SFI 25.5 depends,no leak,even at 213 mph....
Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: dakotawilly] #1563713
01/16/14 02:34 AM
01/16/14 02:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline OP
mopar
451Guy  Offline OP
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Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
Maybe a chia hood scoop plug??? An oxygen maker right in the scoop! There is a novel idea!


Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: 451Guy] #1563714
01/16/14 03:23 AM
01/16/14 03:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
I Live Here
Al_Alguire  Offline
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Posts: 19,363
Las Vegas
Chris obviously is one of the guys I was referring to. His car weight is closer to yours than Jess's car is. Jess i think is closer to 2800 but only has a 500" engine but I belive he is upgrading now. They both use B1 originals, and Jess has run 150 with his Dart. He and i have talked about it a few times. He knows I dont think having a bigger motor is always a better way to go. Especially in S/ST as we tend to be out early when the tracks are usually cold, not necessarily the ideal conditions is what i am trying to say. Not having the extra torque is not a bad thing. But there are ways to tame that down as well.

Chris's motor is just to big Also he makes an excellent point in that running here in the high desert is actually different than running where you have some oxygen content. Our barometer always sucks but on the good side we dont get a lot of wate grains

I have been 150 everywhere but Denver. But the DA there is typically 8000+ and the index is 11.55. Boise is my anomoly track as I always tend to go faster than the weather states. I know my first year up there when I uncorked a 154+mph run I was blown away. Never thought I could run that MPH there.

You make a good point about time on the stop. But once again there are ways to minimize that to a certain extent. Many folks dont kill it hard enough, or fast enough especially when they are new to it. But yes as you go faster you will loose more MPH. I loose about 9-11mph depending on the track. I also dont run my car as fast as it can go in S/ST. Just found at 160+ it was to hard to judge the cars as I was so far behind for so long. Became a game of holding a lot of numbers and playing the top end game. Not that we dont do that now but not as much So we killed a bunch of timing and that took away about 4 mph from what we can run. Seems to work better for me anyway.

On the heads I suggest titanium valves on both sides. Also prefer the paired rocker set up and my preference is T&D. We have gooten great service from them. Also a 55MM cam with roller bearings. Next keep the bobweight as lite as reasonably possible, but not so much in the pistons themselves. Been there done that and they do not lik it as much with MAX lightening. I believe this frees up some power and also allows the car to accelerate better. Converter choice will be an issue. Dont expect it to be right the first time believe me IMO you dont need to have anything done to the intake itself. They are plenty large in the plenum for just about whatever you can throw at them. Just port match it and match and blend the carb pad. Get a good vacuum pump and a good oil pan. Those will go a long way to freeing up power and keeping oil under control. Go with pushrod oiling, period! IMO it is a necessity in a B1 deal.

I am helong a buddy put a combo similar to mine together right now. But he is going with an tall deck longer stroke set up. Be interesting to see how it runs. We are using the MC head that are similar to mine and he will have 50cubes on me. His car is also lighter than mine. Anxious to see what this cr runs with the new bullet.


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: 451Guy] #1563715
01/16/14 10:37 AM
01/16/14 10:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda Offline
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Happy Birthday Chris'sBarracuda  Offline
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Arizona
Quote:

I have stayed at my share of Holiday Inns and I am still waiting for something good to happen

How big is your motor?

My car also has a glide and I am shifting on time.

With regards to the greeney. My car picked up 2 full tenths and four mph when I switched from new car sent air y,fresheners to the little pine tree. I am convinced its the extra oxygen from the little tree. I think I am about 62 trees away from going 150.







My motor is a 540" low deck. Don't know why Al says it's too big.
Maybe he thinks I have a 572".
My heads flow about what yours do. I have titanium valves too.
T&D rockers, aluminum rods..


Chris..

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: Chris'sBarracuda] #1563716
01/16/14 12:59 PM
01/16/14 12:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 781
MD
HEMI472 Offline
super stock
HEMI472  Offline
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Posts: 781
MD
how high of rpms are you guys turning these b-1 motors?? so you are saying they will not run at 6500 rpms ???

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: HEMI472] #1563717
01/16/14 02:01 PM
01/16/14 02:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 350
Sidney,Ohio
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challenger1320 Offline
enthusiast
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Sidney,Ohio
I shift my 572 at 7400 thru the lights at 7800

Re: Help Me or Critique My Proposed Combination [Re: challenger1320] #1563718
01/16/14 02:30 PM
01/16/14 02:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 474
Alberta, Canada
451Guy Offline OP
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451Guy  Offline OP
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Alberta, Canada
Thanks guys again for the input. Al I totally know where you are coming from with the converter thing. I just got a new one for my current combination. It is 600 rpm higher than i wanted so I have to send it back to be tweaked. When I was looking for the box to return it I ended up pulling out the converter boxes stashed in various locations. When all was said and done I ended up admiring 13 converters of various shapes and sizes! I need my head examined!!!! Crazy part is I think the "MAGIC" one is still out there!!!!

With regards to the titanium valves. That is an update I will do. And I already have a set of lifters for push rod oiling and the Jesel's are also designed for that.

The reality is once I decide on a combination it will be what it is. We can plan all we want but it will be what it is. I just may have to head over the mountains to Mission to get the 150 MPH pass.


Thanx 451 Guy

512 cu in 71 Demon Super Street Car - NO LONGER - Broke Crank
Best ET 9.57 @ 139.96

451 cu in Pump Gas - 71 Demon Super Street Car
Best ET 9.99 @ 136.80

512 cu in 69 Charger R/T
Best ET 11.39 @ 118.11

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