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Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
#1552521
12/24/13 04:31 PM
12/24/13 04:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
70Drop
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
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I thought I would share a cautionary tale of woe. I decided to go flat-tappet on the 500" stroker in my Duster. It was kind of a big cam for a flat-tappet (256 @ 0.050, .575 lift), not that I'm blaming that for the failure. For the purposes of this post, let's assume I did everything right for break-in and maintenance (which I'm pretty sure I did). I adjusted the valves at about 5 hours of operating time and decided to pull the lifters at the same time (through the drain-back openings in the heads), just to get an idea of how the cam was faring. All the lifters looked perfect, and the valve adjustment did not change at all from the first adjustment after break-in. I noticed some fine metal particles suspended in the oil when I changed it, but I didn't think much of it, since the engine was still pretty new. Fast-forward to a few weeks ago when I decided to put in a new oil pan. Since I was down there, I decided to pull some bearing caps and see how things were wearing. What I found was a lot more wear on the bearings than I would expect on a new engine. So I pulled the intake and found the tips of three cam lobes in the early stages of failure (missing metal, pitting). But to my surprise the lifters were still PERFECT (Isky "cool face" lifters). Long story short, the engine is now ready to go back in with a roller cam  I could speculate that those cam lobes could have kept going flat, and the valve adjustments wouldn't have varied at all, since the lifters weren't going bad. Of course, I wouldn't use valve adjustment variation alone to detect a cam issue. But this experience taught me that consistent valve lash does not mean the cam is good!
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: dodger mope]
#1552524
12/24/13 04:44 PM
12/24/13 04:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
70Drop
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
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Quote:
stories like that gives a person nightmares! what camshaft company?
Engle
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552525
12/24/13 04:48 PM
12/24/13 04:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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Actually, not a big flat tappet, my brother just completed Drag Week with a 272 @ .50 .640 lift cam with cool face lifters. If you look for it, you will find something I guess, I would have drove it until it started popping back through the carb, and then said, "Huh, maybe I should take a valve cover off and check the lash!"
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: dodger mope]
#1552526
12/24/13 11:09 PM
12/24/13 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 430
Washington
skrews
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 430
Washington
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Quote:
stories like that gives a person nightmares! what camshaft company?
X 2 on what cam company 
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: skrews]
#1552527
12/24/13 11:58 PM
12/24/13 11:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
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You sounds either extremely paranoid or you suspect you did something wrong on start-up. Lets hear the whole story. No valve lash change, zero issues and you still go to the trouble of pulling the lifters in the car on an assembled engine. Something just sounds fishy. I know for a fact Brad Penn and a zinc additive appear to have metal suspended and will even leave a fine black residue in the bottom of the oil pan.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1552529
12/25/13 12:15 AM
12/25/13 12:15 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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It's your story so you can tell it any way you want. Rockers not out of adjustment? and the lobes are worn? No ware on the lifters? Yes with those key elements ,I guess it would be hard to detect cam failure. Yes, by all means trash the cam manufacture . Make sure when you install the roller lifters you put the rollers on the cam, they will last longer. 
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: rowin4]
#1552530
12/25/13 12:33 AM
12/25/13 12:33 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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Did you have the cam nitrided ? I run a flat tappet thats 264 and 270 @ .050 with .585 and .592 lift. I use 1.6 rockers so my lift is about .630. I put the eng in the car in June 2011 and its been great. Driven many miles and raced a few times with no signs of any failure. I bought my cam from Dwayne Porter who had it nitrided as per his recomendation which hardens the cam metal. I also use the lifters with the oil hole in the bottom. I use Valvoline VR1 racing oil and always put a can of the zinc additive in at every oil change. But I have had no problems at all and am 100% pleased with mine. Sorry to hear of your problems and hope you get it ironed out. If you would go back to or ever use a solid flat tappet again I would call Dwayne Porter and talk with him as he knows what he is talking about. He talked me out of the roller I was going to use in my street eng as we talked about the spring pressure and roller lifter failures that can also happen and I ended up going with the solid flat tappet and dont regret it one bit. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 12/25/13 02:02 AM.
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552531
12/25/13 02:29 AM
12/25/13 02:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Quote:
Quote:
stories like that gives a person nightmares! what camshaft company?
Engle
What open and closed spring pressures, and who spec'd the springs?
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: Crizila]
#1552533
12/25/13 03:46 AM
12/25/13 03:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
64Post
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,716
Baltimore/Denver
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Just spitballing… Double springs? If so, were the inners pulled on break-in?
I have seen the timing mark jumping around when a lobe(s) started to go.
Last edited by 64Post; 12/25/13 03:52 AM.
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552535
12/25/13 05:07 AM
12/25/13 05:07 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
goldmember
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Quote:
I thought I would share a cautionary tale of woe. I decided to go flat-tappet on the 500" stroker in my Duster. It was kind of a big cam for a flat-tappet (256 @ 0.050, .575 lift), not that I'm blaming that for the failure. For the purposes of this post, let's assume I did everything right for break-in and maintenance (which I'm pretty sure I did).
I adjusted the valves at about 5 hours of operating time and decided to pull the lifters at the same time (through the drain-back openings in the heads), just to get an idea of how the cam was faring. All the lifters looked perfect, and the valve adjustment did not change at all from the first adjustment after break-in. I noticed some fine metal particles suspended in the oil when I changed it, but I didn't think much of it, since the engine was still pretty new.
Fast-forward to a few weeks ago when I decided to put in a new oil pan. Since I was down there, I decided to pull some bearing caps and see how things were wearing. What I found was a lot more wear on the bearings than I would expect on a new engine. So I pulled the intake and found the tips of three cam lobes in the early stages of failure (missing metal, pitting). But to my surprise the lifters were still PERFECT (Isky "cool face" lifters).
Long story short, the engine is now ready to go back in with a roller cam
I could speculate that those cam lobes could have kept going flat, and the valve adjustments wouldn't have varied at all, since the lifters weren't going bad. Of course, I wouldn't use valve adjustment variation alone to detect a cam issue. But this experience taught me that consistent valve lash does not mean the cam is good!
Could you post some pics? If the top of the cam is showing signs of trouble it would be soon you'd have big problems. The brand is not too important as there are only a few core companies and the P55 cores for the Mopar are long gone(unless someone knows where some are stashed???).
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: goldmember]
#1552536
12/25/13 05:34 AM
12/25/13 05:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
70Drop
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
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OK. I was trying not to have this thread be about my cam break-in, but inquiring minds want to know . . .
Broken in on outer springs of a dual-spring setup (350 lb. open pressure when paired). Twenty minutes varying between 1800 and 2200 rpm on start-up. VR1 racing oil and GM EOS at break-in, changed shortly after break-in, and new VR1/filter installed. I cut up the first filter, and it was clean. Suspended flecks of metal in the break-in oil (only visible in light), which is normal ring-to-bore seating debris.
I'm not trying to blame Engle for anything. I've used three of their cams in the past, and they've always been good. Cam was not nitrided.
I've built eight flat-tappet engines, and this is the first one I've had problems with. I've seen it happen to someone else's engine, though. It's not unheard of.
The engine is back together with a Comp roller. I was actually planning to go roller, anyhow. Should be running by Friday.
Just passing on my experience, as it was interesting how it failed - damage to the cam and nothing on the lifters. I just figured the lifters would be the first thing to fail.
And yes, I do check things carefully. I'm a certified aircraft mechanic. I'm sure glad I found this problem when I did, before it took the whole engine out.
I've got nothing against flat-tappets - I've run them most of my life!
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552539
12/25/13 06:45 AM
12/25/13 06:45 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
goldmember
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Quote:
Oh, and it's not much trouble to check lifters on an assembled engine(big-block). I've done it several times before. When the valve covers are off for a valve adjustment, just pull out each pushrod and use a magnet-on-a-stick to pull each lifter through the drain-back holes in the heads. Not much more trouble than adjusting the valves. It probably adds 1/2 hour to the job. Of course I don't do this all the time, but after the first 5 hours on a new engine, I figured it was good insurance. As it turned out, it didn't do me any good at all!
It did a bunch of good as the results of a true flat lobe are far worse. Most flat lobes are that,flat and plenty of cleanup. LOL You caught it early wtf are u bitchin about?? Merry Xmas!
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552540
12/25/13 06:49 AM
12/25/13 06:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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Wow, much uglier than I was expecting to see.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: MoparBilly]
#1552541
12/25/13 11:30 AM
12/25/13 11:30 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
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I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers but you wouldn't believe what I see week in and week out. There are very few reason why cams go bad and I've seen a lot of them done over and over, Spring pressure (some forget to allow for different rocker ratio's, Some people coat the whole lifter with thick break-in lube instead of just the cam and lifter bottoms, coil bind, IMPROPER START-UP, wrong oil, and a few more. I watch people crank and crank and crank a fresh build probably more than anything some with-out even priming the engine first.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: justinp61]
#1552544
12/25/13 12:17 PM
12/25/13 12:17 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 939
glendora, ca.
Deepockets
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 939
glendora, ca.
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Quote:
Interesting photo, the lobe looks worn more in the center  . One of the things I started doing several years ago was running a burnishing ball through lifter balls and install the lifters with just wd40 on them to make sure they rotate. Sometime I have to move the lifters to other bores to get them to rotate.
if the lifters spin drop in freey, when does the burnishing tool come in to play? do some blocks have tight bores? not sure what the burnishing tool does.
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: Deepockets]
#1552546
12/25/13 12:56 PM
12/25/13 12:56 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,702
W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,702
W. Kentucky
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Quote:
Quote:
Interesting photo, the lobe looks worn more in the center . One of the things I started doing several years ago was running a burnishing ball through lifter balls and install the lifters with just wd40 on them to make sure they rotate. Sometime I have to move the lifters to other bores to get them to rotate.
if the lifters spin drop in freey, when does the burnishing tool come in to play? do some blocks have tight bores? not sure what the burnishing tool does.
I use the burnishing ball after all machine work and cleaning is finished. It helps make the lifter bores a uniform size and smooth out any roughness. If all your lifters rotate in their bores you don't need it.
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552547
12/25/13 03:34 PM
12/25/13 03:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Got a picture of the lifter that went with that lobe?
Fastest 300
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1552552
12/26/13 03:51 AM
12/26/13 03:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
70Drop
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 223
California
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Quote:
I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers but you wouldn't believe what I see week in and week out. There are very few reason why cams go bad and I've seen a lot of them done over and over, Spring pressure (some forget to allow for different rocker ratio's, Some people coat the whole lifter with thick break-in lube instead of just the cam and lifter bottoms, coil bind, IMPROPER START-UP, wrong oil, and a few more. I watch people crank and crank and crank a fresh build probably more than anything some with-out even priming the engine first.
You know, with all the problems people seem to have breaking in their cams, someone smart should offer the service of breaking in cams under controlled conditions. There could be mules of popular engines. The cam could be spun by an electric motor while in an oil bath. The lifters could be loaded with an ideal spring pressure. I could see charging $100 for a service like this, and some people would be happy to pay it.
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552555
12/26/13 04:34 AM
12/26/13 04:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
70AARcuda
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,826
las vegas
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Quote:
Quote:
I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers but you wouldn't believe what I see week in and week out. There are very few reason why cams go bad and I've seen a lot of them done over and over, Spring pressure (some forget to allow for different rocker ratio's, Some people coat the whole lifter with thick break-in lube instead of just the cam and lifter bottoms, coil bind, IMPROPER START-UP, wrong oil, and a few more. I watch people crank and crank and crank a fresh build probably more than anything some with-out even priming the engine first.
You know, with all the problems people seem to have breaking in their cams, someone smart should offer the service of breaking in cams under controlled conditions. There could be mules of popular engines. The cam could be spun by an electric motor while in an oil bath. The lifters could be loaded with an ideal spring pressure. I could see charging $100 for a service like this, and some people would be happy to pay it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjIIinVDYw
someone is providing that service.
Tony
70 AARCuda Vitamin C
71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield)
71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas)
71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552556
12/26/13 04:39 AM
12/26/13 04:39 AM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,173
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,173
CT
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In my opinion, that may have not helped your issue. My understanding is that 15 thou is good for stock rods, but they have squirter holes in the caps to help lube the cam. Most of the aftermarket rods end up closer to .025-.030 side clearance, which allows more oil to splash on the cam. Maybe I'm wrong, but something to consider. How does she sound with the roller?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#1552557
12/26/13 11:47 AM
12/26/13 11:47 AM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers but you wouldn't believe what I see week in and week out. There are very few reason why cams go bad and I've seen a lot of them done over and over, Spring pressure (some forget to allow for different rocker ratio's, Some people coat the whole lifter with thick break-in lube instead of just the cam and lifter bottoms, coil bind, IMPROPER START-UP, wrong oil, and a few more. I watch people crank and crank and crank a fresh build probably more than anything some with-out even priming the engine first.
You know, with all the problems people seem to have breaking in their cams, someone smart should offer the service of breaking in cams under controlled conditions. There could be mules of popular engines. The cam could be spun by an electric motor while in an oil bath. The lifters could be loaded with an ideal spring pressure. I could see charging $100 for a service like this, and some people would be happy to pay it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjIIinVDYw
someone is providing that service.
Interesting video. Thanks. Couple things; Don't know how they measured spring pressure ( or if they did?). Noticed the lifters went in a box when they were done, but not to the lobe that they were spun on. Of course, the tool is not an exact replica of the engine that the cam and lifters will be installed on, which I have some issues with regarding just how beneficial it is. Lube issues ( which I believe was the OP's problem )as a problem were eliminated though - at least on break-in.
Fastest 300
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70Drop]
#1552558
12/26/13 12:51 PM
12/26/13 12:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
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Quote:
Quote:
I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers but you wouldn't believe what I see week in and week out. There are very few reason why cams go bad and I've seen a lot of them done over and over, Spring pressure (some forget to allow for different rocker ratio's, Some people coat the whole lifter with thick break-in lube instead of just the cam and lifter bottoms, coil bind, IMPROPER START-UP, wrong oil, and a few more. I watch people crank and crank and crank a fresh build probably more than anything some with-out even priming the engine first.
You know, with all the problems people seem to have breaking in their cams, someone smart should offer the service of breaking in cams under controlled conditions. There could be mules of popular engines. The cam could be spun by an electric motor while in an oil bath. The lifters could be loaded with an ideal spring pressure. I could see charging $100 for a service like this, and some people would be happy to pay it.
I talked to Jim Dowel owner of Racer Brown cams about cam and lifter failures and inter-changing cams and he recommended against it. He said every block cast has small changes in them from one to the other so even if the cam and lifter were broken in properly and kept matched IF you install it in another engine start with new lifter again. This of course is for any solid or hydraulic cam.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: 70AARcuda]
#1552559
12/26/13 02:23 PM
12/26/13 02:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282
A gulag near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,282
A gulag near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers but you wouldn't believe what I see week in and week out. There are very few reason why cams go bad and I've seen a lot of them done over and over, Spring pressure (some forget to allow for different rocker ratio's, Some people coat the whole lifter with thick break-in lube instead of just the cam and lifter bottoms, coil bind, IMPROPER START-UP, wrong oil, and a few more. I watch people crank and crank and crank a fresh build probably more than anything some with-out even priming the engine first.
You know, with all the problems people seem to have breaking in their cams, someone smart should offer the service of breaking in cams under controlled conditions. There could be mules of popular engines. The cam could be spun by an electric motor while in an oil bath. The lifters could be loaded with an ideal spring pressure. I could see charging $100 for a service like this, and some people would be happy to pay it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjIIinVDYw
someone is providing that service.
I wonder what the warranty is and who is the warrantier ?
How do they duplicate the geometry of the engine block the cam is being installed in? And as someone mentioned it appears the worker is just throwing them in a box , is the box labeled ?
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: JohnRR]
#1552560
12/26/13 03:02 PM
12/26/13 03:02 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,273
PA.
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In the video they mention that the lifters are marked for location. He must mark them before break-in because I didn't see him do it. That would make the most seance thou.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.38@138.67
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Hard-to-detect flat-tappet cam failure
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1552561
12/26/13 05:45 PM
12/26/13 05:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,265
IL
furious70
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,265
IL
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in the video you see the one lifter was marked '15' on it before he put it in the box. Must be done before they put them in the break in mule.
70 Sport Fury
68 Charger
69 Coronet
72 RR
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