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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: BTTG]
#1508321
09/27/13 12:00 PM
09/27/13 12:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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Quote:
The cam used originally to open close the points appears to be in the right place (set to fire... one of the cams is lined up with the electronics window on the pertronix unit). so my thought is to try it and see if it fires...
That's the key- are you at the exact point where it fires (no exp with Pertronix). The initial does not alter phasing (but yes you need the initial set (15) for it to fire) & the intergear slot does not either & only defines where the #1 plug wire will be plugged in at. Phasing is only defined by the relationship around the circle between where the rotor is at when the trigger window makes it fire. In operation only the vacuum advance changes it. I'd drill a 1/2" hole in the cap top flat 2/3 of the way between the center terminal & the #1 terminal & see if it will fire & eyeball the rotor & if it wont fire have a helper crank it & you shine the timing light in the hole to see where the rotor is at when it flashes. Use a junk cap if you dont want to drill your current one but it does let ionized air molecules out which can promote crossfire but the hole does look ugly. NAPA has an Echlin rotor with a .060" longer blade (MO3000) for $8 & change out the door which will help SOME as it will reduce the radial distance & offset some of the arc distance error. If not running vac adv you can pump it up with a vac pump till the phasing is the best it can get then lock the 2 dist plates in that position by drilling a vertical hole down thru the two plates & pinning them with a mini bolt/nut with a sleeve on the bolt inbetween the plate so they stay level when you snug the bolt. with carefull measureing/filing you could make another slot for the rotor tang in the top of the shaft to rephase the rotor that way. Holler how things turn out. EDIT The vac adv will shift phasing clockwise (on a BB) from the at rest (no vac) position & an 8 deg can will shift it 8 deg & with some math you can figure the arc distance it will move the rotor tip or when the light freezes it just see where the rotor ends up at with max vac applied to the can at just off idle or higher (ported vac I'm assuming) or just plug the can into a manifold vac carb port & check it at idle. Neither RPM/timing nor mech adv alters phasing
Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/27/13 04:25 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: BTTG]
#1508322
09/27/13 12:32 PM
09/27/13 12:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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I Win
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Posts: 75,092
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
Figure I'd check to make sure I am not missing something simple here.
You ... the guy above me  ... are missing the most basic principle ... one should not expect to swap out an electronic distributor for a points distributor and and then think the rotor is going to be pointing in the exact same place.
If you change ANY part of the ignition system that is electric in nature you MUST get out the timing light and reset your timing ...
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: JohnRR]
#1508323
09/27/13 12:49 PM
09/27/13 12:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
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Lincoln Nebraska
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Double R are you sure it ain't that my post was too technical for you . Yes timing always needs to be checked but timing does not change phasing & phasing is what he is having a problem with
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1508324
09/27/13 01:13 PM
09/27/13 01:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
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No actually I got glassy eyed and started to lose consciousness when I saw the length of it, the only thing you missed was welding up the slots and filing them to get his mechanical advance set because with his STOCK distributor replacement his TOTAL timing is going to be over 45 degrees if the dist. has not already been modified He hasn't even started the car , reading his post it SOUNDS LIKE he dropped the distributor into the same exact orientation that the electronic distributor was in ... maybe I'm wrong ??? I have never heard of rotor phasing being an issue on a points distributor , that is something you deal with on the mopar electronic distributors . Anyway it SOUNDS to me like all he needs to do is rotate the distributor body so the rotor lines up with the tower for #1 , fire it up , check/set the timing and go from there ... Where I'm a little lost is him wanting to go back to a more stock look  , both distributors LOOK the same on the outside and both now have 2 wires coming out of it ...  ...
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: BTTG]
#1508327
09/27/13 03:23 PM
09/27/13 03:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092
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Quote:
Thanks for the responses... I realize timing needs to be adjusted. What I was surprised by, and didn't think would be an issue, was the that the tip of the rotor could move so far from the cap contact despite being at the firing point (i.e, the rotor phasing was REALLY different b/w the 2 setups).
I just ordered the rotor with the longer contact as it can't hurt. I'll try firing it and see what the phasing looks like with a timing light on the rotor.
I'm replacing my engine wiring harness as well so figured the new set up will appear more like stock with less effort (I don't need to hide an ignition box and wiring to external box). The distributor is the correct part number as well... so why not make the change. instead of a few differences needed for the mopar electronic unit i only need one (single wire from the distributor to the + side of coil)
You can rotate the distributor so the rotor is closer to the tower correct ? Can you post up a picture of what you are talking about because I don't see the issue you think you have?
I only have pertronix I , does the III only need 1 wire ??? I thought they all had 2 ???
Isn't the part number on a TAG that can be moved from one to the other ?????????????????????????????????????????? Nevermind that ... 
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1508329
09/28/13 01:05 AM
09/28/13 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,092
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
You can rotate the distributor so the rotor is closer to the tower correct ? because I don't see the issue you think you have?
If when you have it (the dist housing) rotated to the (Pertronix) firing point & the rotor at that point is say 15 degrees of arc away from dead center on the cap terminal then if you rotate the dist till the rotor is dead even with the cap terminal now the Pertronix will be 15 degrees away from it's firing point. If you are sure the Pertronix was at it's firing point & the rotor was halfway between terminals which cannot be as that's too much error so yes double R we are missing something. Another potential issue is point dizzys can have a significant amount of bushing wear from the point opening/closing tension that ain't a factor with the MP electronic units & reportedly a Pertronix conversion requires a point dist with very minimal play. Autozone sells rebuild ones for cheap (with exchange). To keep your old housing if needed the 2 bushings are available but the ID then needs to be reamed to fit the shaft OD. Holler how things progress.
The rotor is held on the distributor the same way it is with the points setup , the pertronics has nothing to do with that.
Now if he is saying that he is able to get a spark when the pertronics is powered and the rotor is pointing 1/2" from the plug tower .... how can that be ???
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1508331
09/28/13 05:13 PM
09/28/13 05:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 582
PA
BTTG
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 582
PA
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Ok. Went ahead and tried to fire it and it wouldn't start. tried advancing and retarding by turning distributor housing about +/- 15 degrees. every time no go turned a bit slow (battery if fully charged) seemed to kickback on starter every few cylinders and blew a bit of air/gas out carb when i let off key.
i've quadruple checked the plug wiring.
i am including a few pics after thinking a bunch about this.
1. I am assuming the equivalent of the reluctor teeth are the edges of the octagon on the distributor shaft. I'll call them the teeth as i don't know the correct name. in the picture attached the engine is at -5 degrees BTDC cylinder #1 confirmed. the tooth is centered in the middle of what i am assuming is the pertronix pickup (raised black plastic pieve jsut below 6 o'clock on the distributor shaft. if i am mistaken and this section is not teh pickup trigger point please let me know or if the pickup is triggered not in the center let me know. all pictures following the engine hasn't moved.
Last edited by BTTG; 09/28/13 05:34 PM.
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: BTTG]
#1508335
09/28/13 05:30 PM
09/28/13 05:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 582
PA
BTTG
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 582
PA
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my thought is the first thing i need to know if where exactly the ignition trigger occurs... at the beginning middle or end of the pickup window (the pickup can be seen in the middle of the pertronix unit on the first picture. If it is the middle then the plate w/ the pertronix electronics on it needs to move fore/aft to get the rotor tip closer to a cap terminal that will become the #1... if i am thinking about this right the hole in the upper plate for the vacuum advance arm could be redrilled to make the reluctor tooth trigger the unit earlier/later as when i reinstall teh top plate on teh new hole the upper plate will have rotated forward/backwards while the reluctor tooth would have stayed in the same position.
so does anyone know where on the pertronix pickup window triggering occurs by the distributor teeth?
Last edited by BTTG; 09/28/13 05:39 PM.
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: BTTG]
#1508336
09/28/13 06:22 PM
09/28/13 06:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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Good pics! We gotta find out where the (P) system triggers it & it cant be at the apex of the point cam (pic #1) cause that positions the phasing halfway between cap terminals so that cant be right. Just guessing since I've never used it but if you take off the flat piece to see where the window or whatever piece there that does the triggering is at, is it lined up with the point (location) that gets triggered on the flat piece?. EDIT I'm assuming the P mounts on it's own flat plate on top of the top OE plate? If it's physically possible to shift the P plate around/redrill the mounting holes that would work but lets find out where the error is
Last edited by RapidRobert; 09/28/13 06:35 PM.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: BTTG]
#1508338
09/28/13 10:34 PM
09/28/13 10:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
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Posts: 36,041
Lincoln Nebraska
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First we gotta find out where in the rotation the P system fires then line things up at that point & see where the rotor is at that point & with the rotor being in the middle right now I imagine when we change that, that the phasing will be good or close enough. We're dead in the water till we do that. The points fire when the points just open at or near the apex(s) of the octagon but I'm assuming the circle of the P addition that slips over the octagon takes the apexes out of the equation. Just turning the housing (like you do to bump the initial) wont do it since it moves the cap terminal as far away from the rotor the same # of degrees rotation as it does the flat P module closer to the P window or vice versa (1 closer/1 further away). If finding out where it triggers & setting it to that point dont correct the phasing (but I think it will) then either the rotor (only) has to be moved or the P triggering point (only) has to be moved, nothing else will do it. When we solve that then (1) clock the intergear shaft to properly locate the #1 cap terminal in the OE location then (2) turn the dampener to 10 or (15-wild cam) then line up the P window with the trigger with the rotor being under the #1 cap terminal.
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: pertronix III and rotor phasing
[Re: BTTG]
#1508339
09/29/13 03:37 AM
09/29/13 03:37 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
ek3
top fuel
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top fuel
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Posts: 1,899
MYRTLE BEACH SOUTH CAROLINA
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Quote:
Anyone have trouble w/ pertronix III really altering rotor phasing?
I am going from mopar electronic unit to stock points type distributor with pertronix III. My mopar electronic unit was working fine (am replacing for more stock look... 69 b-body) so I just rotated my engine to 15 degrees BTDC and my rotor tip was just at the far edge of the #1 terminal on the cap (engine is 440 so rotor was just CCW to contact on cap) and the reluctor tooth was lined up to fire. Previous timing check with a light confirmed I was running 15 degrees of advance. Intermediate shaft is running front of car to back. When I dropped in the points type distributor the rotor tip was about 1/2 inch further forward CCW (even further away from #1 between halfway between #1 and #8 on the cap). The cam used originally to open close the points appears to be in the right place (set to fire... one of the cams is lined up with the electronics window on the pertronix unit). Haven't tried to fire engine as the 1/2 inch movement of the rotor away from #1 concerned me. Figure I'd check to make sure I am not missing something simple here. From my reading the phasing is not modifiable on points type distributors so my thought is to try it and see if it fires...
Remove the current dist. and -advance- it 1 tooth . re - install the dist. and then rotate the housing to line up the cap/ rotor . indexing from one dist. to another is not exact.  this is simple and if I am wrong you wasted 10 minutes plus the time reading this!
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