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383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
#1491766
08/27/13 08:11 PM
08/27/13 08:11 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
kloyiod
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
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This is a rebuilt motor, the builder had it set up at 4* retarded, cam is ground 3* advanced so that really shouldn't be a issue here. It wouldn't fire right away so I looked things over and found nothing wrong. Bumped a little more timing and tried again and it wanted to fire but instead got a big backfire through the carb, this happened again after giving even more timing. Dist. is installed correctly and firing orders correct ccw also. Thinking that something might be screwed up with the T-gear & chain, I tore into the motor. It's lined up at mentioned above and looking at the Dist drive gear at TDC it isn't parallel with the crank, It's either one side or the other of paralel. No matter what tooth I use it wouldn't go parallel. What gives here, what am I overlooking? I'm at a loss here, any ideas? Thanks
Last edited by kloyiod; 08/27/13 08:48 PM.
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: kloyiod]
#1491769
08/27/13 09:01 PM
08/27/13 09:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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The the balancer at 30* before on the compression stroke where is the rotor pointed... but being that you are talking lining up the dots, do you really know where the cam is in at... I've seen plenty of the dots be off... also is this a hyd cam.. is the preload too tight and you have valves open some EDIT you might be using a advance type dist so if so set the balancer to 16* 
Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 08/27/13 09:03 PM.
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1491770
08/27/13 09:17 PM
08/27/13 09:17 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
kloyiod
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
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Quote:
The the balancer at 30* before on the compression
stroke where is the rotor pointed... but being that
you are talking lining up the dots, do you really
know where the cam is in at... I've seen plenty of
the dots be off... also is this a hyd cam.. is the
preload too tight and you have valves open some
EDIT
you might be using a advance type dist so if so set
the balancer to 16*
Can't tell ya where it's at at 30* BTDC, but with it at about 10* BTDC Dist gear is parallel and rotor is at the 4-5 O'clock position.
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: kloyiod]
#1491771
08/27/13 09:22 PM
08/27/13 09:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
The the balancer at 30* before on the compression
stroke where is the rotor pointed... but being that
you are talking lining up the dots, do you really
know where the cam is in at... I've seen plenty of
the dots be off... also is this a hyd cam.. is the
preload too tight and you have valves open some
EDIT
you might be using a advance type dist so if so set
the balancer to 16*
Can't tell ya where it's at at 30* BTDC, but with it at about 10* BTDC Dist gear is parallel and rotor is at the 4-5 O'clock position.
So with it at 10* is it pointed at #1 terminal
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: kloyiod]
#1491776
08/29/13 01:23 PM
08/29/13 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
GTX MATT
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,163
CT
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There are three possibilities
Carb is junk
Timing is wrong
Cam is way off
Thats it. If the carb is good and a pro built the engine you most likely have a timing issue. Why are you trying to get the drive gear so that the slot is parallel at TDC #1, shouldn't it be perpendicular? Did you VERIFY that its no 180 out (have to ask because people are always CERTAIN that they didn't install it 180 out). Did you check TDC or are you assuming the balancer is correct?
Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat
Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: kloyiod]
#1491777
08/29/13 01:30 PM
08/29/13 01:30 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Geeez, thanks for the help! 
I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1491779
08/29/13 03:47 PM
08/29/13 03:47 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 198
Chester, VA
tobnHisglory
member
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member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 198
Chester, VA
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Quote:
Quote:
Geeez, thanks for the help!
I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying
I'm assuming the  was that no one responded after you that night.
I had a built 440 do this to me several years ago. Stupid rookie mistake that I KNEW I had done right. I didn't bother lining up the dots because I wanted it right, so I degreed in the cam with a degree wheel and dial indicator gage on the lifter. Problem is I degreed it off the first lobe... intake is the second lobe so I was way off.
Believe it or not I even got it to run this way but it took hours of playing with the distributor to get it to fire. It ran but didn't want to rev, was waaaaaaaaaaay off on power and coated the exhaust in black soot. 3 carbs and 2 distributors later I tore into it to figure out what was wrong. Re timed the cam off the proper lobe and it fired like a boss.
Good luck!
-Reggie tobnHisglory2000@aol.com Former Mopars: 73 Charger - 440/727, 68 D200 Camper Special 383/727, 67 Satellite, 71 Superbee, 73 RoadRunner,2009 Ram Quad Cab Hemi 4x4 Current Mopars: 2005 Ram Quad Cab Hemi 4x4, 73 Cuda FE5 318 manual
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: tobnHisglory]
#1491780
08/29/13 04:04 PM
08/29/13 04:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Geeez, thanks for the help!
I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying
I'm assuming the was that no one responded after you that night.
I had a built 440 do this to me several years ago. Stupid rookie mistake that I KNEW I had done right. I didn't bother lining up the dots because I wanted it right, so I degreed in the cam with a degree wheel and dial indicator gage on the lifter. Problem is I degreed it off the first lobe... intake is the second lobe so I was way off.
Believe it or not I even got it to run this way but it took hours of playing with the distributor to get it to fire. It ran but didn't want to rev, was waaaaaaaaaaay off on power and coated the exhaust in black soot. 3 carbs and 2 distributors later I tore into it to figure out what was wrong. Re timed the cam off the proper lobe and it fired like a boss.
Good luck!
Yeah I was helping a friend dial in his cam.. I brought
over my wheel and gauges and he was doing it.. when
he got done(at least he said he was all set).. I asked
him why did you set it off the exhaust lobe... then
he looked at where the dial indicator was at...he
laughed and said... glad you were here
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: GTX MATT]
#1491781
08/29/13 04:28 PM
08/29/13 04:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
kloyiod
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 180
3rd rock
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Geeez, thanks for the help!
I sure hope the rolling eyes thing isnt directed to
me... thats not a good way to get help... just saying
I dont think so I think it was just his way of bumping the thread and asking for more help
Exactly.
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: kloyiod]
#1491783
08/29/13 05:20 PM
08/29/13 05:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Just a little update on this. The other motor that was in there was built for failure, it had a bad knock that I couldn't figure out from the get go. It fired right up and I broke it in, It had about 10 hrs. of runtime total on it before I said screw it trying to figure out the knock and get another motor. I bought a short block to swap out the bad one and used the cam, lifters, timing chain and all other needed parts from the first motor. The cam is degreed in and basically put back together the way the bad motor was. The only issue is that the dist gear is either pointing to the 2-8 O'clock or 4-10, not 9-3 like the FSM says it should be and it leaves me with a major head scratcher. I'm not real wooried about cranking this motor as the cam is already broken in. I am leaning on looking deeper into the dist and figuring out which would be the better of the 2 positions to get the rotor pointing the closest to #1 tower and go from there. I hope this makes sense? Discuss, thanks.
It really doesnt matter where the rotor is pointing
as long as its on #1 on its firing stroke.. just
move the wires around if need be... if its close then
turn the dist so it is... you can turn the intermediate
shaft all way around and wire the cap right and it'll fire
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: kloyiod]
#1491784
08/29/13 05:26 PM
08/29/13 05:26 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 198
Chester, VA
tobnHisglory
member
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member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 198
Chester, VA
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hmmm... just to go back to basics... A distributor drive gear has 18 teeth, so moving one tooth at a time should rotate the distributor slot 20*. It doesn't make sense to me why you can only get it to line up at 8/2 or 4/10. Those are 90* apart, not 20. Maybe it is only sliding down in place where the oil pump shaft slots line up  If so, wiggle it a little and add more pressure to turn the oil pump as it slides in place. Going back to your original post you said it back fired through the carb, so you added more timing and it backfired again. Backfiring through the carb means the timing is advanced too far, igniting the fuel mixture while the intake valve is still open. Advancing it further will only worsen the problem. It sounds like you need to take out a lot of timing. You should be able to put the gear anywhere you want, every 20*. Lining it up 9/3 like the service manual suggests is about having the distributor turned so the vacuum pod and wire harness clear the head and valve cover with adequate room to rotate and dial in the timing. As long as the rotor is pointing to the #1 tower a few (8-16*) BTDC then it should be able to fire.
-Reggie tobnHisglory2000@aol.com Former Mopars: 73 Charger - 440/727, 68 D200 Camper Special 383/727, 67 Satellite, 71 Superbee, 73 RoadRunner,2009 Ram Quad Cab Hemi 4x4 Current Mopars: 2005 Ram Quad Cab Hemi 4x4, 73 Cuda FE5 318 manual
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Re: 383 Cam/Dist. Timing Issues
[Re: kloyiod]
#1491785
08/29/13 05:41 PM
08/29/13 05:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,043
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
The only issue is that the dist gear is either pointing to the 2-8 O'clock or 4-10, not 9-3 like the FSM says it should be and it leaves me with a major head scratcher.
As said , it's not a head scratcher , it doesn't really matter as long as the rotor in the distributor points to the #1 plug when it is supposed to it's going to run.
Quote:
I'm not real wooried about cranking this motor as the cam is already broken in.
Well you should be unless both blocks had bushed lifter bores done on the same machine, by the same operator. you need to do the break in procedure all over again on an unbushed block because the geometry between the 2 will not be the same .
Quote:
I am leaning on looking deeper into the dist and figuring out which would be the better of the 2 positions to get the rotor pointing the closest to #1 tower and go from there. I hope this makes sense? Discuss, thanks.
Is you distributor WELDED to the block ? If not pick a position for the drive , drop in the distributor , pick #1 on the cap and put the wires in the correct order and rotation ... it will start , the engine doesn't care what the FSM written 40 years ago says ...
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