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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: Stanton]
#1458855
06/27/13 04:01 PM
06/27/13 04:01 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 485
Central California
MoParFish
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 485
Central California
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Quote:
Quote:
My block was baked and heard that can add to the problem too
Really ?!?!?! After all the heat cycles its been through you think baking is gonna cause problems ???
Yeah, I forget where I heard that  Please disregard 
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: Crizila]
#1458858
06/27/13 06:55 PM
06/27/13 06:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
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Well, some very light brake honing for a few seconds made the bearing fit perfect, so I turn the cam back around the correct way and slid it in.......it's now getting stuck on another bearing.  So now I have no idea what to do, I might run to Summit tonite and compare my journal sizes to a new cam. My short block is completely assembled so I can't really use the grooved camshaft method that you guys are talking about as it would put shavings in my motor. My engine guy said his friend has a shop in Oberlin Ohio where he made a tool that goes in and slightly crushes the bearing to get proper clearance, but that shop is 90 minutes from my house each way and obviously I'd have to load up the short block and take it with me. Really frustrated and starting to realize why I sold everything 2 years ago and bought a supercharged mustang. That got boring so I bought this project car. 
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: ProSport]
#1458859
06/27/13 06:56 PM
06/27/13 06:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
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By the way, a quick digital reading of my 5 cam journals is:
1.73
1.93
1.95
1.96
1.98
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: ProSport]
#1458860
06/27/13 07:02 PM
06/27/13 07:02 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Your buddy must be talking about Paul @ P.C. Automotive? Sorry I don't have any cams to measure for you  Just be  you sold that Moostang and went back to some real muscle  Slow down, have a  it will all come together 
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: Stanton]
#1458861
06/27/13 07:22 PM
06/27/13 07:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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Really ?!?! So what did the factory do, specify all cam journals be ground undersize? Or did they hone the bearings? Or did they just pound in the cams and hope for the best? No, they didnt care. They would install the cam bearings and bore them out afterwards, so if they were off a touch, it didnt matter. The cam bearings were then bored straight, but the parent material of the cam bores wasnt necesarily straight! No problem till you went onto cam bearing set #2 of some pooor unsuspecting mechanic ....  Mikes way is the right way to do it, and not everyone CAN do it, so its a great idea if you can go that route. As far as cam journals go, its very rare that they are sized THAT much off, but yes, I can say its happened. I have some roller cams that I have taken to the crank grinder and had .001 taken off the journals, so it does hapen, but again, its very rare, and I'd wager 99% of the time unneccesary. Its almost always a bad bore job from factory, and quite often a bad bearing install by the shop, If they use a rubber style installer, if you dont keep it tight against the outer edge of the bearing, you'll most likely have an issue. I you have a aluminum solid spacer type, usually less of a chance, and I always put a wrap of tape around them, and they work out great. This is absolutley a much bigger problem in BBM than the small blocks, but they have their issues as well. A lot of shops charge extra to put BBM cam bearings in, because they CAN be a royal pain. We also arent blessed with as stout of a bearing shell as say a BBC. I do a fair amount of Chevies as well, and there is never the prblems like there is with a BBM. That being said, GM did a lot of oversize and undersize stuff too. Just went to do some block work on a 400SBC, and the mandrel wouldnt fit thru the cam bores. Check the bore, sure enough, its undersized. So, its not just Mopars. The difference is we dont have all the over and under size ebaring options. Also, one BIG area of concern is you guys polishing, cutting and scraping bearings AFTER the engine is partially assembled, or more importantly AFTER the blcok has been final washed. The lips behind a cam bearing hold a tremendous amount of grit and dirt. If your are doing this and the block has oil or solvent in it, your asking for trouble. Now I know, 28,000 people will come on here and say, " hey, I did it, and my engine is still runnning". I know..I know, but I am here to tell you, take a REAL good look at thos areas. They hold a lot of grit, and I have seen a ton of guys start up engines after they have done some work on them, and that grit is what killed them. Be very careful and clean those edges good. Carry on....
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: ProSport]
#1458862
06/27/13 08:09 PM
06/27/13 08:09 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,558
Rittman Ohio
fourgearsavoy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,558
Rittman Ohio
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Bob it's time to disassemble the shortblock and put a grooved cam in there to get it going. Call me if you need help with this project I may be able to find a grooved cam locally. You will want to do it right and wash it out with brushes and the whole deal. Call me if you need me Bob 330 256 1881 Gus
64 Plymouth Savoy
493 Indy EZ's by Nick at Compu-Flow
5-Speed Richmond faceplate Liberty box
Dana 60
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: fourgearsavoy]
#1458863
06/27/13 08:19 PM
06/27/13 08:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
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Yes it is Paul at PC Auto my engine guy was talking about. If I dont get this figured out or get another cam that measures different the short block will be going back to my engine guy, he said he'd take care of it. Did I mention I dont have time for any of this? 
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: CompWedgeEngines]
#1458864
06/27/13 10:16 PM
06/27/13 10:16 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,325
Truckville, the capital of NY
85_Ram_4speed
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,325
Truckville, the capital of NY
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Quote:
Really ?!?! So what did the factory do, specify all cam journals be ground undersize? Or did they hone the bearings? Or did they just pound in the cams and hope for the best?
No, they didnt care. They would install the cam bearings and bore them out afterwards, so if they were off a touch, it didnt matter. The cam bearings were then bored straight, but the parent material of the cam bores wasnt necesarily straight! No problem till you went onto cam bearing set #2 of some pooor unsuspecting mechanic ....
Mikes way is the right way to do it, and not everyone CAN do it, so its a great idea if you can go that route. As far as cam journals go, its very rare that they are sized THAT much off, but yes, I can say its happened. I have some roller cams that I have taken to the crank grinder and had .001 taken off the journals, so it does hapen, but again, its very rare, and I'd wager 99% of the time unneccesary. Its almost always a bad bore job from factory, and quite often a bad bearing install by the shop, If they use a rubber style installer, if you dont keep it tight against the outer edge of the bearing, you'll most likely have an issue. I you have a aluminum solid spacer type, usually less of a chance, and I always put a wrap of tape around them, and they work out great.
This is absolutley a much bigger problem in BBM than the small blocks, but they have their issues as well. A lot of shops charge extra to put BBM cam bearings in, because they CAN be a royal pain. We also arent blessed with as stout of a bearing shell as say a BBC. I do a fair amount of Chevies as well, and there is never the prblems like there is with a BBM. That being said, GM did a lot of oversize and undersize stuff too. Just went to do some block work on a 400SBC, and the mandrel wouldnt fit thru the cam bores. Check the bore, sure enough, its undersized. So, its not just Mopars. The difference is we dont have all the over and under size ebaring options.
Also, one BIG area of concern is you guys polishing, cutting and scraping bearings AFTER the engine is partially assembled, or more importantly AFTER the blcok has been final washed. The lips behind a cam bearing hold a tremendous amount of grit and dirt. If your are doing this and the block has oil or solvent in it, your asking for trouble. Now I know, 28,000 people will come on here and say, " hey, I did it, and my engine is still runnning". I know..I know, but I am here to tell you, take a REAL good look at thos areas. They hold a lot of grit, and I have seen a ton of guys start up engines after they have done some work on them, and that grit is what killed them. Be very careful and clean those edges good. Carry on....
I know you touch WAAYYY more engines than I do, but I have found very similar issues between brands of engines. BBM for me seem to be the worst, BBC seem to be the best.
And for the reasons you specify in your last statement, I install the bearings, check the cam fitment, do any scraping and polishing then reclean the block. I was burned 1 time, never again, to much time lost disassembling everything and then having to put it all back togther to get those nooks and cranies clean around the cam bearings.
Outcast Dodge guy.
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: 85_Ram_4speed]
#1458865
06/27/13 10:36 PM
06/27/13 10:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
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I had that happen to me with my 493. The cam would get to tight and had to be tapped in. I did not like it and removed the cam bearings one at a time as I had installed them myself. When I found the one causing the problem I looked close and found a piece of eng casting had rolled over and got behind the bearing between the bearing backside and the block which raised the bearing surface just enough at that point to make the cam bind up. I could see the scratch on the back of the cam bearing also when I looked real close. I cleaned the casting off and honed the cam hole and reinstalled all the cam bearings and all was fine. Good luck with it as it can be a pain when you get these problems we dont need. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 06/27/13 10:37 PM.
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: Mrbill69]
#1458868
06/28/13 09:21 PM
06/28/13 09:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
ProSport
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,926
Akron, Ohio
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Does anyone have a BB cam laying around that you could measure and compare to the numbers I posted? My engine builder offered to take it apart, fit my cam, clean everything and put it back together at no charge. Now that is a great guy to do business with. Just gotta find time to get the motor to him soon.
1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: ProSport]
#1458869
06/28/13 10:36 PM
06/28/13 10:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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Quote:
Does anyone have a BB cam laying around that you could measure and compare to the numbers I posted?
My engine builder offered to take it apart, fit my cam, clean everything and put it back together at no charge. Now that is a great guy to do business with.
Just gotta find time to get the motor to him soon.
I didnt go re read all this...what brand and style cam?
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: ProSport]
#1458871
06/29/13 10:13 AM
06/29/13 10:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
CompWedgeEngines
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,544
Syracuse,NY
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I just changed out a .640 U/D, so I thought i still had it here, but must have gave it back to him.
Fresh custom ground Comp solid,right out of the package:
#1 1.9995
#2 1.9826
#3 1.9675
#4 1.9519
#5 1.7739
RIP Monte Smith
Your work is a reflection of yourself, autograph it with quality.
WD for Diamond Pistons,Sidewinder cylinder heads, Wiseco, K1 rods and cranks,BAM lifters, Morel lifters, Molnar Technologies, Harland Sharp, Pro Gear, Cometic, King Engine Bearings and many others.
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Re: Cam not fitting into cam bearing
[Re: JohnRR]
#1458873
06/29/13 10:49 AM
06/29/13 10:49 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
I just changed out a .640 U/D, so I thought i still had it here, but must have gave it back to him.
Fresh custom ground Comp solid,right out of the package:
#1 1.9995
#2 1.9826
#3 1.9675
#4 1.9519
#5 1.7739
given those numbers and his from above ...
1.73
1.93
1.95
1.96
1.98
Bob should have been able to throw his cam in from across the room
I'm going to guess difference in measuring tools .
Bob I would take the shop up on his offer , he should have asked you for a cam when you dropped off the block for the build I think. Has your cam been checked to see if it's bent ?
Those clearances dont add up... that would be a TON
of clearance on each journal
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