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trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, #1457734
06/24/13 10:16 PM
06/24/13 10:16 PM
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OK, I'm a little unclear as to how to wire up the following set up. I've read as many posts as I can on the subject, studied diagrams, made my own, etc. but I'm still not sure how to do this right. Plus, (even though he has been very helpful) I don't think I can talk to Mark from Mad anymore. Looking to be 'legal' at the track for occasional strip runs but this is a full street car. I understand the NHRA the rule about the cut off switch though it does make things difficult in this case.

So here's what I am working with; battery in trunk with Mad Elec./Ford start solenoid and insulated connector on the firewall, Taylor heavy duty 4 pole cut off switch under the bumper, AR/Mancini Denso 60 amp (internal regulator) alternator, Mad Elec. ammeter bypass procedure (main feed wires spliced together), Denso/Chrysler mini starter. Still have the OE start relay in place. I already have plenty of heavy 2/0 gauge wire, all the Mad Elec. fusible links and terminals etc.

There is very little in the way of accessories to run, basically head and tail lights, turn signals dash/gauge/indicator lights, ignition & N.S. switches, dome light and that's really it. No electric rad. fan (yet) or anything like that, no elec., fuel pump. Wires from the wipers are all chopped up so that's out too. Basically nothing.

My main questions are how to wire the alternator - I plan to run the alt. output to the insulated connector (on the firewall where the old voltage reg. was), then run the 8 ga. red Tuff wire from the terminal back to the B+ on the start solenoid. Sound OK? If that works, how do I wire the cut off switch with this set up? Can I run the ammeter/main charge wires back to the switch (in addition to the battery cables) to kill everything up by the dash?

Hope that's clear enough. Happy to provide more info if needed. Thanks for any input.

- Greg


'68 Coronet
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457735
06/25/13 02:02 PM
06/25/13 02:02 PM
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bonefish Offline
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do a google search at the top of the page and youll get tons if diagrams and diff ways to doit.helped me alot.

Last edited by bonefish; 06/25/13 02:03 PM.
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: bonefish] #1457736
06/25/13 02:31 PM
06/25/13 02:31 PM
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Balt. Md
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383man Offline
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Basically what you need is the alt battery output wire to go back to the battery side of the cutout switch. That way when you turn the cutout switch off the car will die since the alt output is also cut off. If you left the alt output hooked like it is stock on the eng harnesss side of the cutout switch it would be charging and the car would not cut off when you hit the cutout switch. Ron

Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: 383man] #1457737
06/25/13 09:29 PM
06/25/13 09:29 PM
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Thanks for the replies. I've searched ad nauseum but I'm still unclear, so I'm asking.

So, would it be OK to run the alt. output wire to the B+ side of the starter solenoid? The plan right now is to run the initial alt. output to the Mad terminal block on the firewall, then take another larger wire (8 ga.) and run that back to the B+ side of the Ford solenoid. As I understand it, the B+ side of that solenoid will act in a similar way to the insulated connector on the firewall. At least that's how he (Mad) suggests doing it in his diagrams.

Also, since I bypassed the ammeter, he (Mad Elec. guy) said I might want to run those main feed wires back to the cut off switch to kill the power to the dash (i.e. ign. switch, lights, etc.)

And, do I need to run a second large cable from the B+ post to the cut off switch or can it come from the + side of the solenoid? I'm gonna have to cut and crimp some cables either way,just want to make sure I don't have to re-do it.


'68 Coronet
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457738
06/25/13 10:41 PM
06/25/13 10:41 PM
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RobX4406 Offline
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You MUST MUST MUST isolate the charge line from your alternator from the rest of your electrical system except where it runs back to the battery.

As long as the alternator is turning, it will power up everything in the car when run back to the starter solenoid lug. Throw the switch to kill power from battery to solenoid, you still have power feeding from the alternator.

Think of it like your on/off is a dam. The battery and alternator have to be on one side, and basically the rest of your stuff on the other side.

Now if you wish to wire it that way, you could put a relay in the line and have it trip when the on/off is thrown.

I've posted some diagrams before. I like to use relays for the starter line and alt line at/around the battery location.

Sounds like you are getting some advice that makes this a bunch more difficult.

Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RobX4406] #1457739
06/26/13 12:48 AM
06/26/13 12:48 AM
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Quote:

If you wish to wire it that way, you could put a relay in the line and have it trip when the on/off is thrown. I like to use relays for the starter line and alt line at/around the battery location.




How would I wire a relay into the alt. output circuit with the Ford solenoid and disconnect switch? Isn't the solenoid essentially a relay in this case?

Quote:

Sounds like you are getting some advice that makes this a bunch more difficult.




I'm probably over thinking it.

Found one of the diagrams, I think this is probably close to what I want.



Last edited by RMCHRGR; 06/26/13 01:04 AM.
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457740
06/26/13 02:17 AM
06/26/13 02:17 AM
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RobX4406 Offline
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If you use a 4 pole switch, you won't need a relay for the alt line

Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RobX4406] #1457741
06/26/13 10:52 AM
06/26/13 10:52 AM
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Quote:

If you use a 4 pole switch, you won't need a relay for the alt line




I have a Taylor #1033 4 pole switch. Here's their diagram below. Guess I should have my answer from this but I am still a little fuzzy. Just seems like the circuit I am trying to work out has some slightly different variables. Maybe I just need to sit with it a little more and start mocking it up. I'm a little slow when it comes to electrical engineering.

7755471-4poleswitch.JPG (578 downloads)

'68 Coronet
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457742
06/26/13 01:59 PM
06/26/13 01:59 PM
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RobX4406 Offline
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That altenator pole is good for 20 amps... good luck.

If you want to run a ford solenoid, wire it like the diagram that you posted. IMO, the 4 pole isn't stout enough to carry a continuous duty charging load.

This appears to be bordering on paralysis by analysis.

Same idea using a continuous duty solenoid for the alt line instead of a 4 pole switch.



Only change on a street car would be to activate the CD solenoid with a wire that is switched via your key/ignition so it's not a constant drain when the on/off switch is in the on position.

Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RobX4406] #1457743
06/27/13 01:32 PM
06/27/13 01:32 PM
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Yancy Derringer Offline
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1--Use a 4 terminal disconnect, properly known as a "double pole single throw" or DPST switch

2--I see no reason to use Ford solenoids. This adds more (contact) voltage drop in the starter circuit.

Run the alternator directly to the starter relay with a nice big, say, no6 wire. Jumper the starter relay to the starter terminal. Run your battery cable from the starter post to the trunk, or use a font mount junction point to relieve cable stress off the starter

Run two no 14 wires from engine bay to the rear and hook them to the disconnect small terminals

Run the disconnect in series with the main battery cable

Hook the two no 14's to the disconnect small terminals

Up front, pick one of the no 14's, and run it to the dark blue "run" wire out of the bulkhead -- or whatever you are using for "switched ignition."

If you are running MSD hook the second no 14 coming back up from the disconnect to the "small red" MSD wire

If you run "other" ignition, use the no 14 to key a good quality relay, and use the relay to power your ignition system. Properly fuse

No other solenoids, relays, needed.

In my opinion, running the alternator wire back to the battery + does NOT MEET the intent of the rules, because with the battery shut off, it leaves a hot lead coming up from the battery

Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: Yancy Derringer] #1457744
06/27/13 02:43 PM
06/27/13 02:43 PM
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Yancy, thanks for the reply but I think I'm beyond most of the things you suggested.

I have a 4 pole disconnect.

I have a terminal connector (Mad Electrical)on the firewall where the charge wires (8 ga) run to and the accessories (basically just an MSD 6AL) will be taken off of.

I no longer have an externally regulated alternator (the AR/Denso 60A is internally regulated) so there is no external voltage regulator or sense wires. The Denso has a 3 wire pigtail that has a sense wire and a switched 12V so I can run those to the firewall connector.

I have an MSD 6AL and I ended up removing the ballast resistor wiring altogether from the harness. The ignition 1 + 2 wires (brown + blue) were spliced together behind the bulkhead to connect to the small red signal wire for the MSD.

Alternator output will initially go to the terminal connector in the front, then back to the B+ side of the disconnect switch with a fusible link on the end of the wire where it connects to the stud. That should isolate it and shut it down when the switch is opened since it's on the B+ side of the master.

The OE ammeter has been bypassed as well - the wires that hooked to the two posts behind the gauge are spliced together. The wires coming out of the harness that used to pass through the bulkhead connector (aka main feed for dash/accessories) are no longer passing through it. They will be spliced together as well and run back to the small post on the disconnect to kill power to the dash area when the switch is opened (fusible linked of course). This is basically to disconnect the ignition switch from power since its fed through that circuit. That should prevent any run on.

I already have the Ford starter solenoid mounted to the battery box. The only reason for the remote solenoid is to be able to run the large battery cable inside the car and have it hot only when cranking.

I'm still not sure exactly how to run one of the larger cables from the battery to the disconnect but I plan to take it from the B+ side of the solenoid to the 2nd 1/2" stud. The stud will have to be jumped with the 2nd smaller stud to get power to it when its on.

If you haven't figured it out, I like to do things the hard way.


'68 Coronet
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457745
06/28/13 12:26 PM
06/28/13 12:26 PM
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Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457746
06/30/13 01:52 PM
06/30/13 01:52 PM
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Glendora Ca.
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RMCHRGR, I see some of your confusion in what you are saying.

A) what you have is a 2 pole switch (4 post/connections) which is a DPST. think of poles as switch contacts.

B) The small pole of the switch you have is only rated at 20amps, this will not handle your ALT output. But will work to break your MSD small red (turn on)input or other small loads like relays

C)The more relays and connections you have the more places it has a chance to fail. Which normally happens when it is most inconvenant.

D) Any time you have a relay energized it will draw power. So if you wire a relay that is controlled by your disconnect switch you will have to turn off the switch when the car will set, or it will drain the battery over time.

There are alot of ways this can be done. Try to make it simple.



"Just a Bracket car dressed up like a streetcar"
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: Just-a-dart] #1457747
06/30/13 02:20 PM
06/30/13 02:20 PM
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RobX4406 Offline
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Quote:

RMCHRGR, I see some of your confusion in what you are saying.

A) what you have is a 2 pole switch (4 post/connections) which is a DPST. think of poles as switch contacts.

B) The small pole of the switch you have is only rated at 20amps, this will not handle your ALT output. But will work to break your MSD small red (turn on)input or other small loads like relays

C)The more relays and connections you have the more places it has a chance to fail. Which normally happens when it is most inconvenant.

D) Any time you have a relay energized it will draw power. So if you wire a relay that is controlled by your disconnect switch you will have to turn off the switch when the car will set, or it will drain the battery over time.

There are alot of ways this can be done. Try to make it simple.




B) or use the on/off to break the main power wire to the MSD. That way you don't have MSD on at all times when the switch is in ON position

There is the minimum standard to pass tech, which is when you throw the switch it shut off. Then there is better than minimum. I like the diagram I posted. It's simple and keeps all wires that are hot within a small area of the trunk, no hot alt line (which will pass tech), nothing going to the front will be hot.

Trunk battery Kit, a ford or jeep style solenoid for starter and a continuous duty relay for the alt line (do not use a ford starter relay for alt line). Even if the alt line relay fails, I carry a jumper wire to bridge the CD relay so I'm no worse than the alt hot line style of wiring.

Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RobX4406] #1457748
06/30/13 03:21 PM
06/30/13 03:21 PM
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Thanks for bringing this back up.

I couldn't think about it anymore so I went out and started wiring it up.

Ford solenoid mounted to battery box. 2/0 cable runs from B+ post to solenoid lug. 2nd 2/0 cable with ring terminals runs from the same stud on the solenoid to the 1/2 stud on the cold side of the disconnect switch. Then, a 1/0 cable runs from the output side of the solenoid to the B+ stud on the starter.

The alternator output wire (8ga.) runs from the B+ stud to the terminal connector on the firewall, then directly back to the B+ side of the disconnect switch. There is a 12 ga. fusible link at the end of that wire on the 1/2" stud.
I made a jumper wire for the cold side of the disconnect switch out of 8 ga.

Again, the ammeter was bypassed and the 'main feed' wires have been spliced together. I haven't done it yet, but I plan to run that back to the small stud on the cold side of the disconnect.

The MSD B+ goes to the firewall connector but I suppose I could also run it back to the disconnect switch. The voltage sense wire for the alt. goes to the firewall connector. The plan right now is to run a wire from an empty spade connector in the fuse box to the alt. for switched 12v. (again, I have a bare minimum of accessories to power) I took the lamp wire out of the alternator pigtail connector.

Another thing I'm a little unclear about is the yellow ignition feed to the starter relay. I think I may have to run that back to one of the smaller terminals on the Ford solenoid as opposed to the OE starter relay. As of now, that would be the only wire going to the OE starter relay.

Also, not sure if I can permanently jump the mini starter or if I have to still use the starter relay. The Mad guy said I would burn up my starter if I did that since its a permanent magnet type. I could wrong on that.

That's where I'm at. Hope that makes sense to those of you who replied. I know I am making it sound more complicated than it should be.


'68 Coronet
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457749
07/10/13 03:14 PM
07/10/13 03:14 PM
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I am back at this again after putting it down for a bit. Unfortunately, I still need to get some things straight.

1)Do I need to and/or can I run the yellow ignition feed wire from the ignition switch to the 'I' terminal on the Ford solenoid?

2)Is it OK to run a jumper between the two terminals on a mini starter? As I understand it, this will fry it since its a permanent magnet type. Not a problem to run the OE starter relay with the remote solenoid.

3) I'm still unsure how to run the alternator wire to the trunk. Right now, I have an 8 ga. wire that initially goes to the M.A.D. Ent. insulated terminal (aka 'buss bar') on the firewall. It picks up there then runs back to the trunk area. There's a fusible link on the end and a ring terminal. Again, I am unclear on where this wire should terminate - directly at the battery post, on the disconnect itself or on the input side of the Ford solenoid? The Mad guy shows it going to the input side of the Ford solenoid but his diagram does not show a disconnect switch.

4) Can/should the neutral safety switch wire now go to the 'S' terminal on the Ford solenoid?

5) Does it make sense to run the main feed wires for the dash (red + black, ammeter bypassed, bulkhead bypassed) back to the disconnect switch?

Yes, I am thick. Thanks again.


'68 Coronet
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457750
07/13/13 01:08 AM
07/13/13 01:08 AM
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Yancy Derringer Offline
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I don't really go for all the hand wringing about "not having a hot cable," but that's OK

I don't believe in running a DEDICATED (unswitched) alternator line back, unless it's on the cold side of the switch. That is, if you kill the switch, and it leaves the alternator "hot" I don't believe this meets the intent/ spirit of the rules

The whole deal comes down to this: The alternator will keep the ignition hot, unless you kill the ignition. Since you are using an MSD, this becomes easy.

As I said, run two number 14's from front to rear, hooked to the small terminals of your switch.

Disconnect your ignition run and ballast wire at the jumper FROM the "small red" MSD power wire. This should result in NO ignition.

Now hook the small red to one of your no14's and hook the ignition junction of your "run" and ballast splice to the remaining one.

This gets back to the old wives tale of "testing alternators" where people go around pulling off a battery clamp and "if the engine runs, the alternator is good." Same deal here---the disconnect must break either the alternator circuit or the ignition circuit.

Since those small terminals are too small to carry alternator output, and since there is no field circuit on a "one wire" AND since you handily have an MSD with the "small red" enabling wire, this just became very easy.

Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: Yancy Derringer] #1457751
07/13/13 10:52 AM
07/13/13 10:52 AM
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Thanks for replying again.

Quote:

I don't really go for all the hand wringing about "not having a hot cable," but that's OK




Yeah, I guess it mostly just sounds like a good idea but I really did not like it under the car myself. There are plenty of places for it to chafe inside though. The most obvious place is where it comes out from under the back seat and into the wiring trough. I put a little padding on the end of the thin metal trough cover and put the cable inside a plastic conduit, should be good. Indeed, adding the solenoid in the trunk adds complexity. That's how I did it though so no turning back.

Quote:

I don't believe in running a DEDICATED (unswitched) alternator line back, unless it's on the cold side of the switch. That is, if you kill the switch, and it leaves the alternator "hot" I don't believe this meets the intent/ spirit of the rules




I agree to an extent but the rules make it difficult to accomplish this in few other ways. If you could kill the car using the negative side, that would be easier. I think this is why some suggest using the CD solenoid. I'm also trying to figure out if I can use a relay on the switched 12V wire to do the same thing since the Denso needs a power source to work.

Quote:

The whole deal comes down to this: The alternator will keep the ignition hot, unless you kill the ignition. Since you are using an MSD, this becomes easy.




Wouldn't the idea of running the (spliced) main feed wires for the dash and accessories (red + black) back to the small stud on the switch do that? If you kill that main feed you kill the ignition switch, no? This would in effect be running the ignition switch directly to the disconnect switch since its tied into that circuit.

Quote:

As I said, run two number 14's from front to rear, hooked to the small terminals of your switch.
Disconnect your ignition run and ballast wire at the jumper FROM the "small red" MSD power wire. This should result in NO ignition.
Now hook the small red to one of your no14's and hook the ignition junction of your "run" and ballast splice to the remaining one.




See above reply about running main feed to disconnect switch.

Quote:

This gets back to the old wives tale of "testing alternators" where people go around pulling off a battery clamp and "if the engine runs, the alternator is good." Same deal here---the disconnect must break either the alternator circuit or the ignition circuit.




I guess I am just looking for confirmation that the way I have it wired now - main feed back to small stud, alternator output to B+ side will work. My only other concern is back feeding the alternator output through the switch and back to the battery. I have a 2/0 cable and little in the way of accessories right now so i think it should be fine.

Quote:

Since those small terminals are too small to carry alternator output, and since there is no field circuit on a "one wire" AND since you handily have an MSD with the "small red" enabling wire, this just became very easy.




I will definitely consider this method, sounds reasonable. Thanks again.


'68 Coronet
'71 Duster
'17 Ram 1500
Re: trunk battery, Denso alt,, cut off switch, [Re: RMCHRGR] #1457752
07/16/13 03:00 AM
07/16/13 03:00 AM
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Yancy Derringer Offline
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If I understand, you still contemplate feeding the alternator to the battery through the small switch terminals. Don't do that.

The whole deal is, (since you have MSD) what you are essentially doing is to wire the small terminals in series with the output of your ignition switch "ignition run" which enables the MSD through the "small red."

By breaking that line with the disconnect, the ignition can NOT "run on" when the disconnect is pulled.

So there is no need to run the alternator clear to the rear, IF you do not use a "Ford" solenoid --just hook the alternator up where the main battery line comes up front.

If you DO want to use a Ford solenoid, you'll just about still need an alternator output line to the battery---and this is my point, I don't see the purpose.







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