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Self Learning EFI Systems
#1450109
06/09/13 07:44 PM
06/09/13 07:44 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
Fastback67
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
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So... I have a 383, a 400, and a 440, hanging around my garage awaiting rebuild. I have been toying with the idea of mounting one of those new self learning EFI systems (MSD ATOMIC, EZ EFI) on one of them. I know that in the past, there have been a great number of attempts and failures with the older style user programmable EFI systems. Whether this was due to operator error, or simple capability issues I do not know, as I have had no first hand experience with any of these conversion systems myself. Anywho... I was just wondering if anyone here could shed some light/experience on the subject. These new self contained, self learning systems from MSD, EZ EFI and the like, seem to be almost foolproof, but you know what they say... If it sounds to good to be true, it usually is. Any and all advice or comments would be welcome. Thanks! 
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: Fastback67]
#1450110
06/10/13 01:10 AM
06/10/13 01:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
redmist
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
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I went with Megasquirt, and am into my whole setup for less than the EZ-EFI and the likes. The plus side, is mine is full sequential port injected spark, and fuel. The down is it takes some time to get done! Glad I did it though, It's way more tunable, and option packed compared to the bolt on systems.  ETA: It "self learns" I drove around all day today, and let the system tweek the VE tables itself. 
Last edited by redmist; 06/10/13 01:13 AM.
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: JonGottaDemonDad]
#1450112
06/10/13 02:02 AM
06/10/13 02:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
redmist
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
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It took me months...
But I soldered together everything, ECU, STIM board, Stim X... Everything. I also sourced all the sensors, pigtails, and injectors, and other stuff out of the junkyard. I built a custom bushing to adapt a Jeep 4.0 Cam Position Sensor so it drops right in the distributor hole and engages the oil pump drive.
It took a while, and I had to do a ton of reading, but WOW what a system! I have only let it auto tune for about 30 minutes, but it ran better right off the bat on my default maps then it ever did with a carb.
Now knowing what I know about EFI, I would be frustrated by the bolt on stuff... What if I want to change dwell on my coils? What if I want to run a second MAP sensor for altitude correction on the fly? Two stages of Nitrous? Launch Control? What If I want to bump the timing up at a specific low point in my idle to "catch" it should an accessory draw down the engine? What about data logging? How about dual fuel maps?
The MS3 Trounces the other systems at a fraction of the cost, and you get all the above built right in, and that's just scratching the surface.
I understand some people are not looking for that, but I wanted to throw it out as an option. I had ZERO experience with EFI three months ago, and now I can walk out, turn the key, and it fires right up! I can even drive away without waiting for it to warm up because I have set the WUE Warm Up Enrichment maps to compensate.
It honestly runs like a modern car, and I haven't even really tuned it yet.
Just an option.
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: redmist]
#1450113
06/10/13 10:13 AM
06/10/13 10:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
It took me months...
But I soldered together everything, ECU, STIM board, Stim X... Everything. I also sourced all the sensors, pigtails, and injectors, and other stuff out of the junkyard. I built a custom bushing to adapt a Jeep 4.0 Cam Position Sensor so it drops right in the distributor hole and engages the oil pump drive.
It took a while, and I had to do a ton of reading, but WOW what a system! I have only let it auto tune for about 30 minutes, but it ran better right off the bat on my default maps then it ever did with a carb.
Now knowing what I know about EFI, I would be frustrated by the bolt on stuff... What if I want to change dwell on my coils? What if I want to run a second MAP sensor for altitude correction on the fly? Two stages of Nitrous? Launch Control? What If I want to bump the timing up at a specific low point in my idle to "catch" it should an accessory draw down the engine? What about data logging? How about dual fuel maps?
The MS3 Trounces the other systems at a fraction of the cost, and you get all the above built right in, and that's just scratching the surface.
I understand some people are not looking for that, but I wanted to throw it out as an option. I had ZERO experience with EFI three months ago, and now I can walk out, turn the key, and it fires right up! I can even drive away without waiting for it to warm up because I have set the WUE Warm Up Enrichment maps to compensate.
It honestly runs like a modern car, and I haven't even really tuned it yet.
Just an option.
Unfortunately 75%, or more, of the people that would like to switch over won't because of all the work involved. The drop on, self tuning throttle body setups appeal to those people, especially if they could do it using a 6psi mechanical fuel pump 
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: justinp61]
#1450115
06/10/13 11:29 AM
06/10/13 11:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,062
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
The new one from Holley looks interesting, Terminator, I believe it's called.
Edelbrock just came out with one also that looks a lot like the FAST system ...
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: redmist]
#1450116
06/10/13 12:35 PM
06/10/13 12:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Quote:
It took me months...
But I soldered together everything, ECU, STIM board, Stim X... Everything. I also sourced all the sensors, pigtails, and injectors, and other stuff out of the junkyard. I built a custom bushing to adapt a Jeep 4.0 Cam Position Sensor so it drops right in the distributor hole and engages the oil pump drive.
It took a while, and I had to do a ton of reading, but WOW what a system! I have only let it auto tune for about 30 minutes, but it ran better right off the bat on my default maps then it ever did with a carb.
Now knowing what I know about EFI, I would be frustrated by the bolt on stuff... What if I want to change dwell on my coils? What if I want to run a second MAP sensor for altitude correction on the fly? Two stages of Nitrous? Launch Control? What If I want to bump the timing up at a specific low point in my idle to "catch" it should an accessory draw down the engine? What about data logging? How about dual fuel maps?
The MS3 Trounces the other systems at a fraction of the cost, and you get all the above built right in, and that's just scratching the surface.
I understand some people are not looking for that, but I wanted to throw it out as an option. I had ZERO experience with EFI three months ago, and now I can walk out, turn the key, and it fires right up! I can even drive away without waiting for it to warm up because I have set the WUE Warm Up Enrichment maps to compensate.
It honestly runs like a modern car, and I haven't even really tuned it yet.
Just an option.
True success stories are always nice to hear 
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: redmist]
#1450120
06/10/13 10:36 PM
06/10/13 10:36 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 598
NC, USA
davenc
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 598
NC, USA
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Redmist,
Your system looks amazing! Would you mind detailing out all of the parts that go into your EFI setup?
The Edelbrock manifold is obvious, but what did you use for injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, IAT, MAP, TPS, coils, etc? What about the fuel system?
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: davenc]
#1450121
06/10/13 11:22 PM
06/10/13 11:22 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,235
Marion Illinois
72d100
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,235
Marion Illinois
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Quote:
Redmist,
Your system looks amazing! Would you mind detailing out all of the parts that go into your EFI setup?
The Edelbrock manifold is obvious, but what did you use for injectors, fuel rails, throttle body, IAT, MAP, TPS, coils, etc? What about the fuel system?
 ive been wanting to try a megasquirt for awhile now
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: Fastback67]
#1450122
06/10/13 11:29 PM
06/10/13 11:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
VincentVega
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,106
Northeast
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Great job with the Megasquirt. I always wanted to do this, but I just haven't bumped into the confluences of time and money yet. I would like to use it for a turbo 225. already got the dutra duals
Looking for 1975 through 1978 B body 4 door sedan sheet metal or parts cars - monaco, fury, coronet. Please let me know
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: VincentVega]
#1450123
06/11/13 10:58 AM
06/11/13 10:58 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
Fastback67
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
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redmist I was checking out your post over at DC.com... Your killing me lad  I'm a DIY kind'a guy, which means I really enjoy doing that sort of stuff!
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: Fastback67]
#1450124
06/11/13 02:24 PM
06/11/13 02:24 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 20
Easton, Minnesota
gpuller
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 20
Easton, Minnesota
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I was looking into the self learning EFI systems and from what I've found is they dont like cams with over 250 deg of duration. My 440 has the old MP 284/484 cam, self learning EFI isnt goin to like that. I like what quicksilver440 is doing. He's putting together EFI using LS1 parts. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...&PHPSESSID=Been digging around trying to find someone close that could do the tuning. Found a place but haven't contacted them to see if its something they would want to do. Now if Redmist would start mass producing his cam sensor adapter. I looked at his build and started reading on the MS site and was lost in no time. Building the brains of the system isn't for me. He does some awesome work! Reed
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: gpuller]
#1450125
06/12/13 10:06 AM
06/12/13 10:06 AM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
Fastback67
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 233
NH
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Quote:
I was looking into the self learning EFI systems and from what I've found is they dont like cams with over 250 deg of duration. My 440 has the old MP 284/484 cam, self learning EFI isnt goin to like that.
Reed
284 is the Advertised Duration for the MP cam... The EFI system manufactures are looking for duration at .050, which in your case would be 241, so your cam is fine.
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: Fastback67]
#1450126
06/12/13 11:56 AM
06/12/13 11:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 20
Easton, Minnesota
gpuller
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 20
Easton, Minnesota
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Quote:
Quote:
I was looking into the self learning EFI systems and from what I've found is they dont like cams with over 250 deg of duration. My 440 has the old MP 284/484 cam, self learning EFI isnt goin to like that.
Reed
284 is the Advertised Duration for the MP cam... The EFI system manufactures are looking for duration at .050, which in your case would be 241, so your cam is fine.
Good point, thanks for the clarification.
I'm also running a MP electronic ignition. Haven't seen anybody run that ignition with one of the EFI kits. Is it possible and will it work? If I'd have to up grade, I'd just as soon use that money for an LS1 type set up.
Still learning...
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Re: Self Learning EFI Systems
[Re: Fastback67]
#1450128
06/13/13 08:29 PM
06/13/13 08:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
redmist
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 305
5th and plum
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Oh wow! Lots of interest in the MS build. Here is a link to the build start to finish for those super interested, I detailed the build fairly well to try and make it so people were not so scared of it. http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,99432.0.html Basic rundown of parts is: *deep breath* 440, .30 over 10:1 E-heads, Comp XS-282 Solid MS3X Controller LS Individual coils (LQ9 off a 2003 Yukon) 32 lb-hr injectors out of a ford raptor 6.2 VR sensor out of a ford rustang TPS, IACV, MAT, and MAF sensors are off of a 2003 Saturn CPS is adapted down with a custom bushing I made to use a 2003 Jeep 4.0 Cam Sensor EGO Correction is an AEM wideband Fuel system is a Walbro 255 to some cheep frozen boost.com -8 lines and fittings
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