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Mine is 496" with 6 pak and with a big Comp solid, I have 16*-17* initial with a REAL quick curve...all in by 2200 RPM. No vacuum advance hooked up and running 36* total timing.I ran the Comp XE295Hl before and it should tie into it like gangbusters when set up right.
Check your end carbs to make sure they are not open too far with the throttle at rest....the rods should JUST pop into the throttle levers on the end carbs. And make sure you don't have a vacuum leak at the intake.....I've had that happen before when the paper gaskets I put on the intake pan moved when installing.
Late timing down low will cause a bog.

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Mine is 496" with 6 pak and with a big Comp solid, I have 16*-17* initial with a REAL quick curve...all in by 2200 RPM. No vacuum advance hooked up and running 36* total timing.I ran the Comp XE295Hl before and it should tie into it like gangbusters when set up right.
Check your end carbs to make sure they are not open too far with the throttle at rest....the rods should JUST pop into the throttle levers on the end carbs. And make sure you don't have a vacuum leak at the intake.....I've had that happen before when the paper gaskets I put on the intake pan moved when installing.
Late timing down low will cause a bog.

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would you think the vaccum should be more with this cam than 9-11? that seems low to me and I am wondering if I am losing it somewhere. I guess I will shoot some starter fluid around the intake to see if that detects it unless you guys have any other method for locating a vaccum leak. THanks

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I would only expect around 10 inches of vacuum with that cam in a 440. Even though you've got more cubes at idle it won't matter much. Needs more timing but that is going to exacerbate your fast idle issue. Are you setting up the center carb with the outboards disconnected?

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100%.....you have to find what's causing the high idle first.....that thing will not idle at all with the screw backed all the way out if everything is right.
Keep us posted....

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oy vey -- you cant just bolt this stuff on ..

are all carb bolts tight with an inch/lb wrench 160 i belive ?

something makin it idle faster - usually more air .

read this


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post7349675

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oy vey -- you cant just bolt this stuff on ..

are all carb bolts tight with an inch/lb wrench 160 i belive ?

something makin it idle faster - usually more air .

read this


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post7349675

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actually mine worked very well out of the box w/ very little tweaking. I have since added more compression muuuch better heads and a solid roller cam.. that's when the tweaking started.

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oy vey -- you cant just bolt this stuff on ..

are all carb bolts tight with an inch/lb wrench 160 i belive ?

something makin it idle faster - usually more air .

read this


https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post7349675

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actually mine worked very well out of the box w/ very little tweaking. I have since added more compression muuuch better heads and a solid roller cam.. that's when the tweaking started.

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The OP has a 500 inch engine , they carbs are calibrated for something that is 60 cubes less , so tweaking is a given ...

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oy vey -- you cant just bolt this stuff on ..

are all carb bolts tight with an inch/lb wrench 160 i belive ?

something makin it idle faster - usually more air .

read this


[url=https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?


Cat=0&Board=Racer&Number=7349675&Searchpage=2&Main=7346119&Words=Tom_Quad&topic=&Search=true#Post7349675]https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post7349675[/url]

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actually mine worked very well out of the box w/ very little tweaking. I have since added more compression muuuch better heads and a solid roller cam.. that's when the tweaking started.

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I agree with a timing change BEFORE touching anything else.

Joe

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Why is it idling SO fast at 6* of initial?? It shouldn't idle at all with the base screw not touching....I'm not doubting anything anyone has said so far, but a high idle with the screw backed off is a point of concern....

That is a pretty lumpy cam in there...I've had one....I still say find the idle woes and go from there...

And again I'm presuming the OP has the screw backed right off.

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500 cubes/stealth heads & it ain't been right since day 1 with the massive intake leak. With a killer eng like this you're gonna have a smile on your face once you get it sealed up/tuned

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You think OP, once you get the intake sealed up try setting the outboard linkage up on the center carb. by screwing each end rod out longer than needed to insert it into the linkage on the center carb. Then adjust each one of those so they just fit with the outboard throttle shafts closed all the way with the idle speed screw on the center carb. backed out all the way, adjust from there One other thing is to check the idle mixture screws on the outboard carbs, remove the lead plugs if neccesary and adjust them in all the way carefully,do not FORCE THEM in ,then adjust them out 1/4 to 1/2 turn each on both sides. set the center carb. mixture screws from 1 1/2 to 2 full turns out from bottoming out also, then set the idle speed off of the center carb. My last six pak idled at 850 RPM in gear with a lot bigger cam than yours, it took some tuning to do that also You can make it work good also

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Since I am going to have it off the engine anyone have any input on what jets, squirters, secondary springs, and pv I should put in since I will have it off? I know I should probably seal up the intake first but since I will have it all off on the bench it would be easy to do since it sounds like it will need something a little bigger. Thanks for all the help guys.

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good idea to pull the intake. when you have it off remove the carbs. look at the throttle plates from the bottom side of the carbs and make sure that they closed all the way and are centered in the bores. get a promax base plate and jet plate. i agree with the 70 jets and 33-35 sqt.can't see how it runs with only 6* inital, would seem like the throttle plates are open,are you using a dial back timing light, if so make sure it is set at zero. when setting the idle disconnect the outboards. there is a really good post here about tuning and adj the six pack, it is a bit long but very good check the tech archives. i have it saved to my favorites maybe i could forward it to you.

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brand new remanufactured carbs

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brand new remanufactured carbs

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Are they an original set that has been rebuilt? Or are they brand new? I've seen some sets of 1969 originals that had the "kill bleed" holes drilled oversize in the outboard carbs which prevents them from opening with vacuum.

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Dave,they are supposed to be .043,I've had some as much as .090 !

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Wow.

My experiance suggests that you'll be pretty close with stock jetting. Hard to imagine that you would need 70s (comes with 62 or 63) in the center unless you have the mixture screws on the outboard cabs nearly closed.

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Never had to go above 65's on this and it is not stock,runs like a clock !

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each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.

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Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should

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each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.

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Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should

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Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess...

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each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.

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Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should

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Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess...

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Hes probably running 48 with the vacuum advance hooked up and pulling full advance

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each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.

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Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should

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Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess...

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Hes probably running 48 with the vacuum advance hooked up and pulling full advance

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each motor is different. don't think just because everyone says to run 16 to 18 intial and 36 to 38 total is correct, this is abunch of b/s. my 383 6pk loves 22 inital and runs great with48 total. i run 70's with a 33 squrt, point is find out what works for your gig. standard usual b/s can be a baseline and thats all. i'm not saying that there aren't issues at play here however, there is a correct starting point and then work from there. i'll see if i can get you this tech archive but ANYONE on this site that has a 6pk has read this article, it helped me a bunch. can't figure out how to link the tuning info to you. get a hold of DAYCLONA, member here, he is the one who posted it, great tuning info, follow it step by step. hope this helps.

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Are you running straight alcholol with 48 degrees total timing? If not and your running gasoline did you verify the TDC marks and the timing marks on your balancer on your motor? If no to either maybe you should

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Sorta what I thought too Cab....wasn't getting pissy or anything...just couldn't see how that would work with a gas motor...but...every thing is different I guess...

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Hes probably running 48 with the vacuum advance hooked up and pulling full advance

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total timing is just that. a total of all. what kind of time frame are you talking about on the mains and the metal transfer for a street motor? this info is new to me and probably others as well. can you help us out?

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you are assuming that people don't figure vac adv into total because of a full throttle condition. how many street cars are driven at full throttle? i know that vac adv has nothing to do with full throttle and there are street cars that don't run vac adv because of low vac and they don't run full throttle( all in by 2500 rpm, thats not full throttle on my car) however, that does not mean that the phrase total advance does not include vac adv even if you think that is the case USUALLY. don't say that vac adv is not part of total adv timing, it is. depending if you use vac adv or not because of YOUR motor set up is up to you, rewriting what total is, is not up to you. keep it straight and don't give wrong info. apply the correct info to your specific needs. still waiting for the info on the mains and metal transfer and why that happens.

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I don't believe I specified anywhere that you should run X total timing, but either way it doesn't really matter. The first rule of setting timing is to disconnect the vacuum advance. This is probably also part of why its commonly accepted to not include vacuum advance in your total advance number, in addition to the fact that the vacuum advance really doesn't matter for full throttle performance. Also, I happen to like vacuum advance on a street car because it does make it feel much stronger part throttle, so I agree with you 100 percent there. But the way you phrased it, and you can tell by the reaction of other members, sounds like you are running 48 degrees of mechanical timing. I don't THINK this is the case, this IS the case, and why you telling people to run 48 degrees of timing sounds ridiculous. And I don't know why you're telling me anything when I'm the one who knew what you were talking about.

I haven't rewritten anything, this is what is commonly accepted. That's why you are constantly hearing people say to run 34-38 total. When they say this they mean MECHANICAL ADVANCE ONLY. If EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, its probably you who is actually wrong. That is why everyone quickly seemed appalled that you're running a claimed 48 total. Surely 24ish total mechanical timing that would come from running 34-38 degrees of total advance including vacuum would cause sluggish performance.

So what do you run for total mechanical timing?

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Here's the usual six pack on here ...

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Well....the "Argument" seems to be what and what is not total advance.....I think the OP has enough proper info to continue.....we don't know how it's going to run until he gets a couple of things resolved. As long as he doesn't figure the timing out the "other" way...

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Hope my ramblings make sense

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Your rod bearings will be hammered, the 3 center main caps will lose their register and will metal transfer to the block, pistons will lose their ring lands, with a TRUE 48 degrees timing, like 20 at the crank and 28 in the dist. All problems I have seen with hero timing like that. 38 is the correct MAX timing for a bb mopar, no argument on that, 1/4 mile or granmas grocery getter. If the cam is in wrong 48 might work??

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Best answer yet! Ha ha !!

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Well I pulled the intake tonight and what do you know the two ports that seemed like a leak when I sprayed it were missing about 3/4 of an inch of rtv at the top of the gasket so it was sucking air through both of them so that is probably the cause of the low vaccum and the reason we would get the run on when we shut it off and could not lower the idle rpm enough. Sucks when you have an engine assembled by the machine shop only to have to rip the top of it off!
But since I have it apart I thougt I would make sure I get all the carb settings the way you guys think would be best for the combo.
I went to a 4.5 pv, the jets in it are 63's and the squirter in the center carb is a 32(this is my first six pack so still learning it over the 4 barrels I have done in the past, do the outbords have squirters? I did not see any and I would assume there are jets in the outboards too?) But what should I run for the jets to be safe but not too fat? some guys have said 70's on the jets and 33-35 on the squirters. What color springs in the secondaries? I will set the timing at 14 intial and go for 36 total. I will see how it runs and if it pings at all and move the timing up until it talks to me a little and then back it off. Should I plug the vaccum advance or run it?

Just want to get it close while it is on the bench as I don't really want to tear it apart again on the car as those fuel lines are kind of a pain to get a wrench onto as it seems like there is always a vaccum line in the way.

Plus one thing

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Well I pulled the intake tonight and what do you know the two ports that seemed like a leak when I sprayed it were missing about 3/4 of an inch of rtv at the top of the gasket so it was sucking air through both of them so that is probably the cause of the low vaccum and the reason we would get the run on when we shut it off and could not lower the idle rpm enough. Sucks when you have an engine assembled by the machine shop only to have to rip the top of it off!
But since I have it apart I thougt I would make sure I get all the carb settings the way you guys think would be best for the combo.
I went to a 4.5 pv, the jets in it are 63's and the squirter in the center carb is a 32(this is my first six pack so still learning it over the 4 barrels I have done in the past, do the outbords have squirters? I did not see any and I would assume there are jets in the outboards too?) But what should I run for the jets to be safe but not too fat? some guys have said 70's on the jets and 33-35 on the squirters. What color springs in the secondaries? I will set the timing at 14 intial and go for 36 total. I will see how it runs and if it pings at all and move the timing up until it talks to me a little and then back it off. Should I plug the vaccum advance or run it?

Just want to get it close while it is on the bench as I don't really want to tear it apart again on the car as those fuel lines are kind of a pain to get a wrench onto as it seems like there is always a vaccum line in the way.

Plus one thing

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I am not trying to contradict Tom Quad as he is always helpful, but Mr Six Pack, Bob Karakashian uses a 160 degree thermostat in his pure stock 6 pack Super Bee, and does not think the 195 is required...

He also recommends 38 -40 degrees total timing and no vacuum advance for performance use. Granted he does run real race gas and has 11 to 1 compression which is allowed in pure stock.

Good luck with it!


Arnie

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I am not trying to contradict Tom Quad as he is always helpful, but Mr Six Pack, Bob Karakashian uses a 160 degree thermostat in his pure stock 6 pack Super Bee, and does not think the 195 is required...

He also recommends 38 -40 degrees total timing and no vacuum advance for performance use. Granted he does run real race gas and has 11 to 1 compression which is allowed in pure stock.

Good luck with it!

Arnie

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Regardless whether you have 50 cu.in or 500 cu.in,depends on your end goal,street or strip !

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I am not trying to contradict Tom Quad as he is always helpful, but Mr Six Pack, Bob Karakashian uses a 160 degree thermostat in his pure stock 6 pack Super Bee, and does not think the 195 is required...

He also recommends 38 -40 degrees total timing and no vacuum advance for performance use. Granted he does run real race gas and has 11 to 1 compression which is allowed in pure stock.

Good luck with it!


Arnie

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Myself and others have run 40-42° on factory heads. Why? Because the et time slip says so. Same with the 160° thermostat.

These and many other details are not that important for your stuff to run good, but it makes a difference if you want it to run quicker/faster.

To the OP. Much what is posted on this forum is often times based on opinion verses real data or fact, or what someone has read somehere else. Your challange is to assign the right level of reality of these opinions as they apply to your application. This is especially important on the six pac, as cherry picking others suggestions can cause you more problems than benefits.

Good luck.

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The quality of the gas you use, the local weather and altitude, the accuracy of the timing marks and timing light as well as the spark plug heat range and ICU all contribute to what ignition timing works best for your parts I use the time slip and spark plug to tune off of, They don't lie Dyno tuning results may not be the best tune up for the track or the street Test,test and then test some more if you want the car to go as fast as possible

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Well I pulled the intake tonight and what do you know the two ports that seemed like a leak when I sprayed it were missing about 3/4 of an inch of rtv at the top of the gasket so it was sucking air through both of them so that is probably the cause of the low vaccum and the reason we would get the run on when we shut it off and could not lower the idle rpm enough. Sucks when you have an engine assembled by the machine shop only to have to rip the top of it off!
But since I have it apart I thougt I would make sure I get all the carb settings the way you guys think would be best for the combo.
I went to a 4.5 pv, the jets in it are 63's and the squirter in the center carb is a 32(this is my first six pack so still learning it over the 4 barrels I have done in the past, do the outbords have squirters? I did not see any and I would assume there are jets in the outboards too?) But what should I run for the jets to be safe but not too fat? some guys have said 70's on the jets and 33-35 on the squirters. What color springs in the secondaries? I will set the timing at 14 intial and go for 36 total. I will see how it runs and if it pings at all and move the timing up until it talks to me a little and then back it off. Should I plug the vaccum advance or run it?

Just want to get it close while it is on the bench as I don't really want to tear it apart again on the car as those fuel lines are kind of a pain to get a wrench onto as it seems like there is always a vaccum line in the way.

Plus one thing

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Do any of the throttle plates have a small (1/8") hole drilled in them ?

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brand new remanufactured carbs

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Are they an original set that has been rebuilt? Or are they brand new? I've seen some sets of 1969 originals that had the "kill bleed" holes drilled oversize in the outboard carbs which prevents them from opening with vacuum.

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Update as I just got done working on it.

Well now I am really getting frustrated as it will not start yet. I have replaced the ecu with chrome mopar one, the resistor with MSD .80, and the fuel pump with a 150 gph mechanical pump. Still did not start. I checked the coin for spark, it has a big spark and about knocked me on my butt as it arched across the metal and came back and hit me! then I pulled a plug wire to make sure it had spark at the plug. Yes it had good spark there. Poured a little gas in the center carb and it fired off.

My only other thoughts are the fuel filter or the sock inside the tank?? I am going to pull the filter tomorrow it is brand new "date code" correct metal one. Has anyone had any problems with those??

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Maybe i should start my own thread but:
my six pack hasnt been running super great but i found that the intake was sucking oil so fixed that yesterday.i also tested the outboard carbs with a vaccum pump to make sure they open and they didnt, i used the vac fitting/line that connects all three carbs together,is that the right one?

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Is the ballast directional?

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Maybe i should start my own thread but:
my six pack hasnt been running super great but i found that the intake was sucking oil so fixed that yesterday.i also tested the outboard carbs with a vaccum pump to make sure they open and they didnt, i used the vac fitting/line that connects all three carbs together,is that the right one?

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Please clarify what you mean by ".... I can not get it to idle below 1000 as we are bottomed out on the idle adjustment ..."

Does this mean that the throttle plates are open as far as possible with the adjustment screw at 1000 rpm, or are they in the closed position?

When at an idle in neutral, if you put you hand over he middle carb to choke it, does the idle speed increase initially before dropping off?....if so, it could be a vacuum leak.

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If I can give my after I've adjusted the center and outboards (promax baseplates installed) advanced the timing to where is really healthy, and vacuum is at 18 I'm idling around 1400rpms and I can't get the curb idle screw to get any lower the maybe 1200.

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Please clarify what you mean by ".... I can not get it to idle below 1000 as we are bottomed out on the idle adjustment ..."

Does this mean that the throttle plates are open as far as possible with the adjustment screw at 1000 rpm, or are they in the closed position?

When at an idle in neutral, if you put you hand over he middle carb to choke it, does the idle speed increase initially before dropping off?....if so, it could be a vacuum leak.

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If I can give my after I've adjusted the center and outboards (promax baseplates installed) advanced the timing to where is really healthy, and vacuum is at 18 I'm idling around 1400rpms and I can't get the curb idle screw to get any lower the maybe 1200.

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Since I am going to have it off the engine anyone have any input on what jets, squirters, secondary springs, and pv I should put in since I will have it off? I know I should probably seal up the intake first but since I will have it all off on the bench it would be easy to do since it sounds like it will need something a little bigger. Thanks for all the help guys.

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If it is a stock 6-pack set up I'd jump to 70 jets, 33-35 squirters, maybe drop down on the PV also, not sure what type of vaccum that cam should pull. I have yet to change out my acc pumps but I've been to told go up to 50cc. As for springs, try it on the street 1st. I eneded up with the purples and it flat out hauls tail. Once you get it tuned hang on.

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Since I am going to have it off the engine anyone have any input on what jets, squirters, secondary springs, and pv I should put in since I will have it off? I know I should probably seal up the intake first but since I will have it all off on the bench it would be easy to do since it sounds like it will need something a little bigger. Thanks for all the help guys.

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If it is a stock 6-pack set up I'd jump to 70 jets, 33-35 squirters, maybe drop down on the PV also, not sure what type of vaccum that cam should pull. I have yet to change out my acc pumps but I've been to told go up to 50cc. As for springs, try it on the street 1st. I eneded up with the purples and it flat out hauls tail. Once you get it tuned hang on.

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What if anything will the 70 jets and 33-35 squirters, do for me at idle?
My problem is that when I drop it in drive it will stall and die. I have the Purple Cam 64 duration 110 centerline. Done everything under the sun (new 2400 flash stall convertor, new center carb, changed jets and pv's, prior to the new carb). My next step is to install filler gaskets on the valley pan. I'm still chasing a vacuum leak.

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Since I am going to have it off the engine anyone have any input on what jets, squirters, secondary springs, and pv I should put in since I will have it off? I know I should probably seal up the intake first but since I will have it all off on the bench it would be easy to do since it sounds like it will need something a little bigger. Thanks for all the help guys.

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If it is a stock 6-pack set up I'd jump to 70 jets, 33-35 squirters, maybe drop down on the PV also, not sure what type of vaccum that cam should pull. I have yet to change out my acc pumps but I've been to told go up to 50cc. As for springs, try it on the street 1st. I eneded up with the purples and it flat out hauls tail. Once you get it tuned hang on.

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What if anything will the 70 jets and 33-35 squirters, do for me at idle?
My problem is that when I drop it in drive it will stall and die. I have the Purple Cam 64 duration 110 centerline. Done everything under the sun (new 2400 flash stall convertor, new center carb, changed jets and pv's, prior to the new carb). My next step is to install filler gaskets on the valley pan. I'm still chasing a vacuum leak.

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