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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: Troy] #137162
10/16/08 07:18 PM
10/16/08 07:18 PM
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David Walden
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David Walden
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Quote:

Dave, (by the way I hope all is well) Who are you restoring the car for??? For yourself?....The people in the hobby? Or for the people that just want to sture the pot?? This might be a question that you need to answer.




Hello Troy! Always good to hear from you. The question was really rhetorical in nature. When you do things like this, the motivation has to burn from within.
Again I wanted to make clear that this will not be a casual clean and wax job. It will actually be MORE involved than the last two cars. I will be documenting aspects that were never even considered with the other cars. For instance, when I remove the tie rods from their sleeves I will count the threads that are protruding from the lock nuts that hold the clamp in place. Why? For a couple of reasons. Number one, I will put them back exactly the way they came off. Same amount of threads showing after the nut. The clocked position of the nuts will also be duplicated when reassembled. Second, it will be interesting to see if the torque specs are in line with how tight the factory originally tightened them. I realize that specifications change once a part has been stressed but it will still be interesting to see how close they were to the published specification. A lot of people talk about how these cars were built in a haphazard fashion, so it will be educational to witness the outcome of some of the findings. I have many other areas that I hope to find facts on regarding how these cars were actually built. I wonder how many other people check torque specs on their cars when they wash, wax and clean the windows?

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: rayztoy] #137163
10/16/08 07:21 PM
10/16/08 07:21 PM
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David Walden
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Hello Ray,
You will never know how encouraging those words are to me. Thank YOU for everything!!

Sincerely,
Dave W.

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: badblack68] #137164
10/16/08 07:25 PM
10/16/08 07:25 PM
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David Walden
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Quote:

They are only as assembled by the factory once.




We can hopefully change that line of thinking!

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: ECS] #137165
10/16/08 07:30 PM
10/16/08 07:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,808
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda Offline
Too Many Posts
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Kirkland, Washington
Quote:

Quote:

Dave, (by the way I hope all is well) Who are you restoring the car for??? For yourself?....The people in the hobby? Or for the people that just want to sture the pot?? This might be a question that you need to answer.




Hello Troy! Always good to hear from you. The question was really rhetorical in nature. When you do things like this, the motivation has to burn from within.
Again I wanted to make clear that this will not be a casual clean and wax job. It will actually be MORE involved than the last two cars. I will be documenting aspects that were never even considered with the other cars. For instance, when I remove the tie rods from their sleeves I will count the threads that are protruding from the lock nuts that hold the clamp in place. Why? For a couple of reasons. Number one, I will put them back exactly the way they came off. Same amount of threads showing after the nut. The clocked position of the nuts will also be duplicated when reassembled. Second, it will be interesting to see if the torque specs are in line with how tight the factory originally tightened them. I realize that specifications change once a part has been stressed but it will still be interesting to see how close they were to the published specification. A lot of people talk about how these cars were built in a haphazard fashion, so it will be educational to witness the outcome of some of the findings. I have many other areas that I hope to find facts on regarding how these cars were actually built. I wonder how many other people check torque specs on their cars when they wash, wax and clean the windows?




How are you going to differentiate from "breakaway torque" (what I assume you are measuring when you remove a fastener) and "installed torque" (which is what the factory tightened the fastener too)????
They are most certainly two different values!

Or are you measureing the torque required to return the nut/bolt to its clocked position and recording that value as installed torque? In the case of gaskets, that most certainly would change.

Last edited by Pacnorthcuda; 10/16/08 07:36 PM.
Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: Pacnorthcuda] #137166
10/16/08 07:40 PM
10/16/08 07:40 PM
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USA
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David Walden
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Quote:

How are you going to differentiate from "breakaway torque" (what I assume you are measuring when you remove a fastener) and "installed torque" (which is what the factory tightened the fastener too)????
They are most certainly two different values!




We will not be calculating the breakaway torque. The torque will be calculated after the parts are void of ALL oxidation and then reassembled. The thread count and nut configuration will be compared to the "before" documentation. That is why I mentioned the pre-stress condition that occurs on parts when they are originally assembled.

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: ECS] #137167
10/17/08 01:15 AM
10/17/08 01:15 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 503
Sooner state
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Slim Smitty Offline
mopar
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Sooner state
Let the party begin. I'll be following this one all the way.

I loved the last project and look forward to all the details of this one.
I also like the bickering this one's all ready stirring up. I get a kick out of it. Kinda like watching a reality tv show.

The fender tag and vin tag topics on this site are a hoot too!


- - - - - - - 65 Coronet
Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: Slim Smitty] #137168
10/17/08 10:02 AM
10/17/08 10:02 AM
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Posts: 5,044
At a gas station near you
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badblack68 Offline
master
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At a gas station near you
Dave, I enjoyed going the "e-body" school with the Challenger. Now that you have explained your intentions with this survivor a-body, I look forward to following along and attending a-body school. Your level of quality workmanship and your intense level of attention to detail is by far the best on the planet. What is the projected time frame to get project a-body from start to completion?

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: badblack68] #137169
10/17/08 11:06 AM
10/17/08 11:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,527
minnesota
Kirby Offline
pro stock
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minnesota
Dave- your work, effort and enthusiasm is incredible! A true asset to our hobby. We need some before pics- come on man quit teasing us! I think the "critics" should start posting pics of the cars THEY have "restored". What credentials do they possess that makes them capable enough to nit pick your efforts? Someone can SAY they have been restoring these cars for 25 years- but thats them SAYING it. Lets see some of their endeavors, let others see/judge THEIR work, and we'll be the judge of their work/expertise. Release the hounds!

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: Kirby] #137170
10/17/08 11:57 AM
10/17/08 11:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,912
Anchorage, Alaska
Iceman01 Offline
Challenged
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Quote:

Dave- your work, effort and enthusiasm is incredible! A true asset to our hobby. We need some before pics- come on man quit teasing us! I think the "critics" should start posting pics of the cars THEY have "restored". What credentials do they possess that makes them capable enough to nit pick your efforts? Someone can SAY they have been restoring these cars for 25 years- but thats them SAYING it. Lets see some of their endeavors, let others see/judge THEIR work, and we'll be the judge of their work/expertise. Release the hounds!






Until total honesty is on the table, we're not even talking about reality...
Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: Iceman01] #137171
10/17/08 03:08 PM
10/17/08 03:08 PM
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David Walden
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Thanks (to the last 3 individuals who posted) so much for the encouragement concerning this project. I will be documenting and providing a step by step analysis for anyone who is interested about the steps that will be taking throughout the entire process. We will be documenting the mil thickness of paint on every square foot of each body panel. It will be interesting to see the variance of paint that was applied during the factory painting procedures.

The first thing we will do will be to get the car on a lift and have every inch documented with digital pictures. Jon (who does our graphics) will position a camera under the car, while it is suspended and take pictures spaced six inches apart. It will take over 100 pictures that will then be put together in photo shop to provide a seamless view of the complete underside of the vehicle. We will also take separate close up photos of all the various components under the car. A narrated video documenting the same details will also be used to reference the original components. That should accurately cover every detail/part that will need to be reinstalled when finished at a later date. Take a look at the underside of the Challenger that Jon put together in photo shop. It was done with about 50 pictures that was fused together using computer programs. To complete this photo the camera was spaced about 12 inches apart.

Using a six inch picture format for the A Body project should provide a much better view of documentation for the components.


Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: ECS] #137172
10/17/08 03:56 PM
10/17/08 03:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,704
KY
65pacecar Offline
master
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KY
Quote:

Thanks (to the last 3 individuals who posted) so much for the encouragement concerning this project. I will be documenting and providing a step by step analysis for anyone who is interested about the steps that will be taking throughout the entire process. We will be documenting the mil thickness of paint on every square foot of each body panel. It will be interesting to see the variance of paint that was applied during the factory painting procedures.

The first thing we will do will be to get the car on a lift and have every inch documented with digital pictures. Jon (who does our graphics) will position a camera under the car, while it is suspended and take pictures spaced six inches apart. It will take over 100 pictures that will then be put together in photo shop to provide a seamless view of the complete underside of the vehicle. We will also take separate close up photos of all the various components under the car. A narrated video documenting the same details will also be used to reference the original components. That should accurately cover every detail/part that will need to be reinstalled when finished at a later date. Take a look at the underside of the Challenger that Jon put together in photo shop. It was done with about 50 pictures that was fused together using computer programs. To complete this photo the camera was spaced about 12 inches apart.

Using a six inch picture format for the A Body project should provide a much better view of documentation for the components.






Dave,

This sounds like an excellent project and will serve as a guide for not only future restorations and new product development but also in verifying, maintaining and proper handling and care of Survivor cars. I have been planning a very similar endeavor in the future with one of my cars. I am currently finishing the restoration on a 65 Sport Fury Hardtop and will be following it with either a 340 Cuda or Demon for my wife. The project I have been planning is similar to your idea and I will be performing this task on my 65 Sport Fury Convertible Indy Pace Car. I have had this car since I was 16, bought it from the original owner, an elderly gentleman in his late 70’s (also named Shannon); that kept the car in a heated garage since new and took pristine care of it. The Sport Fury still retains its original paint (Excellent condition), Interior which is near perfect, the top still looks new, but the rear window is clouded and is one item that will be replaced, the original suspension still feels tight etc. The Plymouth was so nice, that even as a 16 Year Old I bought a 76 Volare to beat on to save my car and keep it in nice condition. The car shows minimal wear but has accumulated some dirt and grime in areas that cannot be cleaned properly without disassembly; for years I have considered a ground up restoration, but over the past year I have decided to do a project very similar to yours since I don’t want to kill its character. I plan to dismantle the car, document as I go (You have already given me some excellent ideas on the amount of detail and documentation I need to achieve), restore all of the original components as much as possible and replace (in my case at least) only the items that have to be replaced. I have restored two 65 Sport Fury’s already and am currently finishing a black hardtop that has helped develop a process that I prefer and acquire knowledge of the assembly line techniques and patterns on these cars; I have taken extensive notes along the way. I have also accumulated a number of NOS and NOS Assembly line parts for these cars since the late 80’s and even though the other Sport Fury’s were total restorations to correct specs, I have always held back the best of the best for this car in anticipation of a complete restoration. Since deciding on preserving the original fit, finish and as many of the components of the car as possible; most of the NOS parts will probably end up staying in inventory, but that is fine. I am looking forward to your documentation and revival of this car; I know it will serve my project and others well by illustrating both assembly line technique and patterns along with the craftsmanship it takes to accomplish a project such as this.

Best of luck to you and your team with this project, it will take a lot to rival the Challengers accomplishments if it’s even possible, I look forward to seeing the finished product and the updates along the way.

Shannon

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: ECS] #137173
10/17/08 04:39 PM
10/17/08 04:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,604
Cleveland, OH
TWS Offline
top fuel
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Posts: 1,604
Cleveland, OH
Quote:

Thanks (to the last 3 individuals who posted) so much for the encouragement concerning this project. I will be documenting and providing a step by step analysis for anyone who is interested about the steps that will be taking throughout the entire process. We will be documenting the mil thickness of paint on every square foot of each body panel. It will be interesting to see the variance of paint that was applied during the factory painting procedures.

The first thing we will do will be to get the car on a lift and have every inch documented with digital pictures. Jon (who does our graphics) will position a camera under the car, while it is suspended and take pictures spaced six inches apart. It will take over 100 pictures that will then be put together in photo shop to provide a seamless view of the complete underside of the vehicle. We will also take separate close up photos of all the various components under the car. A narrated video documenting the same details will also be used to reference the original components. That should accurately cover every detail/part that will need to be reinstalled when finished at a later date. Take a look at the underside of the Challenger that Jon put together in photo shop. It was done with about 50 pictures that was fused together using computer programs. To complete this photo the camera was spaced about 12 inches apart.

Using a six inch picture format for the A Body project should provide a much better view of documentation for the components.






Now THAT gets my vote for Mopar photo of the year. Spectacular photography and photoshopping! You could sell posters of that. If only there was a way to shoot the parts of the car above the ramps and the tire bottoms.

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: TWS] #137174
10/17/08 05:10 PM
10/17/08 05:10 PM
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David Walden
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Thanks Tim,
We now have a way to do exactly what you suggested and WILL be doing it on this project. (I am even contemplating redoing the other cars pictures.) The car will literally look as if it is hoovering in the air.

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: ECS] #137175
10/17/08 05:14 PM
10/17/08 05:14 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Faxon is working on the factory assembly line manuals for a-bodies.
Will one of these manuals be used on this project.
I have put everything on hold for my Dart until I can obtain a copy.

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: 65pacecar] #137176
10/17/08 05:34 PM
10/17/08 05:34 PM
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USA
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David Walden
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Shannon....what can I say to such a statement?!? You have been one of the better surprises (and friends) that resulted from this years Nationals. It would be my pleasure to help with your project (as well as ANYONE else following this thread) regarding documentation or the procedures that we discover. I am an advocate of sharing all the data that might be used to help the efforts of others. This thread started out a little rocky but I sincerely hope that down deep, some of the skeptics will realize that our focus is on the progression of the hobby and its participants! This will be a long (hopefully fun) journey and if one other person can benefit from the work involved, I will consider the outcome a successful one. I do promise that the car will be better than the Challenger in all areas. Each project is a learning experience. You take the aspects previously discovered in the last restoration, bring them to the next project and improve from there!

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: ECS] #137177
10/17/08 05:59 PM
10/17/08 05:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,852
Dallas, TX
70challrtse Offline
super gas
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Dallas, TX
Super cool pic!!

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: ECS] #137178
10/17/08 06:13 PM
10/17/08 06:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 190
Wilmington,NC
I
I go fast Offline
member
I go fast  Offline
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I

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 190
Wilmington,NC
Do we have to go through all your greatness again?

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: I go fast] #137179
10/17/08 06:24 PM
10/17/08 06:24 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,527
minnesota
Kirby Offline
pro stock
Kirby  Offline
pro stock

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Posts: 1,527
minnesota
No just don't open the thread!

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: I go fast] #137180
10/17/08 06:27 PM
10/17/08 06:27 PM
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Posts: 920
Grafton, OH
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lmn6pack Offline
super street
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super street
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Posts: 920
Grafton, OH
Dave,

I guess you answered my question in the last thread "taking it to the next level". The question being what have you learned from the challenger and can you "create" an even better masterpiece. Good luck with your endeavor!

Rick Janosik

Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!! [Re: lmn6pack] #137181
10/17/08 07:52 PM
10/17/08 07:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 190
Wilmington,NC
I
I go fast Offline
member
I go fast  Offline
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I

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Wilmington,NC
Quote:

Dave,

I guess you answered my question in the last thread "taking it to the next level". The question being what have you learned from the challenger and can you "create" an even better masterpiece. Good luck with your endeavor!

Rick Janosik





No,and if I did it wouldn't be 3500ls's of steel with four wheels.Also,my head is still not to big for my hat to fit.

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