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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: GTX Mike]
#1366168
01/09/13 01:36 AM
01/09/13 01:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 960
Chicago
PurpleBeeper
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 960
Chicago
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I hope I'm wrong..... but was the block/main journals align honed? The only reason I can see to cut .010" off the rear main seal retainer would be to re-center the seal on the crankshaft after the block was align honed (ie crankshaft moved up in block, but rear oil seal at original/lower location). It's hard to imagine that at least the rope seal couldn't tolerate being off center slightly... but???? You also mentioned that the back of the block is dry. Are you 100% sure that's oil leaking and not gear lube out of a 4-speed trans front seal? I'm just throwing out some other ideas here.... 
70 Roadrunner convt. street car
440+6, NOS, 4-spd, SS springs
'96 Mustang GT convt. street car
'04 4.6 SOHC, NOS, auto, lowered
"Officer, that button is for short on-ramps"
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: PurpleBeeper]
#1366169
01/09/13 03:25 AM
01/09/13 03:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
GTX Mike
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 7
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Quote:
I hope I'm wrong..... but was the block/main journals align honed? The only reason I can see to cut .010" off the rear main seal retainer would be to re-center the seal on the crankshaft after the block was align honed (ie crankshaft moved up in block, but rear oil seal at original/lower location). It's hard to imagine that at least the rope seal couldn't tolerate being off center slightly... but????
You also mentioned that the back of the block is dry. Are you 100% sure that's oil leaking and not gear lube out of a 4-speed trans front seal?
I'm just throwing out some other ideas here....
I also thought about the seal having a different center than the crank and, like you, I figured the rope seal would forgive anything minor. I might wind up pulling this motor again to find out if there's something weird like that going on. I hope not. And it's an auto trans, so I'm sure it's engine oil. Thanks for the thought, though.
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: Hooligan]
#1366171
01/09/13 09:51 AM
01/09/13 09:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 338
Montreal Quebec
STROKIE
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 338
Montreal Quebec
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Quote:
I neglected to mention that the one-piece seal is not shown on the Hughes website. Try calling them, and I'll try remembering if it was them or a different vendor. If they don't sell them, they probably know where to get one.
I contact Hughes to order the one-piece seal and the answer was: The project has been cancelled... 
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: Commando1]
#1366173
01/09/13 11:08 AM
01/09/13 11:08 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,125
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,125
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
Quote:
And become a billionaire!
R.
No, not really. 440 Source will come out with a cheaper one "just like it" and everybody will use that one.
GTX , ditch the rope seal AND did you check to make sure the source retainer isn't the problem ? I remember there was an issue with it being offset ???
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: JohnRR]
#1366174
01/09/13 12:14 PM
01/09/13 12:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
bobs66440
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,880
Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
And become a billionaire!
R.
No, not really. 440 Source will come out with a cheaper one "just like it" and everybody will use that one.
GTX , ditch the rope seal AND did you check to make sure the source retainer isn't the problem ? I remember there was an issue with it being offset ???
They are all offset to prevent them from being installed backwards. If you measure the space in the block where the retainer goes, you will see.  There was a guy at some point comparing a 440 Source cap with a factory one and showing how it was offset. But he had them up against each other at 180 degrees, so it looked off.
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: roadhazard]
#1366175
01/09/13 01:22 PM
01/09/13 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,431
USA
SSAAHemiFan
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,431
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I'd cut 5/10 thou off the retainer with a cap grinder - NOT a belt sander
It is possible the crank is under spec
FWIW - I always use a shaved Original Mopar retainer - with a rope seal - light silicone on sealing surfaces and fill in the sides - no issues
Since you have a smooth seal surface - shave the cap and get a good viton seal - lube the seal heavily for startup.
Did you measure and inspect his block to advise removing material from the seal retainer?
Removing .005" - .010" from the seal retainer has virtually NO effect when using a rope seal.
Removing the same amount for using a rubber seal can very well have a negative effect.
Does one make their housing bores on the rods or mains smaller to decrease bearing clearance?
Find the root cause of the problem, smooth shaft and rope seal, sillycone band-aid, retainer fitment and concentricity with the block and crank bores and parting surface alignment with a rubber seal for starters.
BTW a rod cap grinder is the proper method for removing material from the seal
retainer
The OP stated he has already tried a rope and viton seal with no change - obviously I cannot inspect his block but I can advise him on what works for me and I did so.
He is probably going to find out his aftermarket retainer is sitting to high/poorly machined OR the seal journal is undersized on his aftermarket crank.
You brought up the belt sander not me 
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: SSAAHemiFan]
#1366176
01/09/13 01:40 PM
01/09/13 01:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,431
USA
SSAAHemiFan
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,431
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'd cut 5/10 thou off the retainer with a cap grinder - NOT a belt sander
It is possible the crank is under spec
FWIW - I always use a shaved Original Mopar retainer - with a rope seal - light silicone on sealing surfaces and fill in the sides - no issues
Since you have a smooth seal surface - shave the cap and get a good viton seal - lube the seal heavily for startup.
Did you measure and inspect his block to advise removing material from the seal retainer?
Removing .005" - .010" from the seal retainer has virtually NO effect when using a rope seal.
Removing the same amount for using a rubber seal can very well have a negative effect.
Does one make their housing bores on the rods or mains smaller to decrease bearing clearance?
Find the root cause of the problem, smooth shaft and rope seal, sillycone band-aid, retainer fitment and concentricity with the block and crank bores and parting surface alignment with a rubber seal for starters.
BTW a rod cap grinder is the proper method for removing material from the seal
retainer
The OP stated he has already tried a rope and viton seal with no change - obviously I cannot inspect his block but I can advise him on issues I have come across and what has worked for me.
I thought tht is what I did
Again he is probably going to find out his aftermarket retainer is sitting to high/poorly machined OR the seal journal is undersized on his aftermarket crank. I've seen it many times.
You brought up the belt sander not me and yes you do make housing bores smaller to decrease clearance so you lost me on that?
I assumed he would be going back to the viton seal this time around.
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: drew72]
#1366179
01/09/13 03:38 PM
01/09/13 03:38 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'd cut 5/10 thou off the retainer with a cap grinder - NOT a belt sander
It is possible the crank is under spec
FWIW - I always use a shaved Original Mopar retainer - with a rope seal - light silicone on sealing surfaces and fill in the sides - no issues
Since you have a smooth seal surface - shave the cap and get a good viton seal - lube the seal heavily for startup.
Did you measure and inspect his block to advise removing material from the seal retainer?
Removing .005" - .010" from the seal retainer has virtually NO effect when using a rope seal.
Removing the same amount for using a rubber seal can very well have a negative effect.
Does one make their housing bores on the rods or mains smaller to decrease bearing clearance?
Find the root cause of the problem, smooth shaft and rope seal, sillycone band-aid, retainer fitment and concentricity with the block and crank bores and parting surface alignment with a rubber seal for starters.
BTW a rod cap grinder is the proper method for removing material from the seal
retainer
The OP stated he has already tried a rope and viton seal with no change - obviously I cannot inspect his block but I can advise him on issues I have come across and what has worked for me.
I thought tht is what I did
Again he is probably going to find out his aftermarket retainer is sitting to high/poorly machined OR the seal journal is undersized on his aftermarket crank. I've seen it many times.
You brought up the belt sander not me and yes you do make housing bores smaller to decrease clearance so you lost me on that?
I assumed he would be going back to the viton seal this time around.
No, actually you make housing bores smaller to INCREASE crush. On a rigid component like a viton seal or a bearing, you change the i.d. of the bearing or seal to decrease clearance.
The housing bore for the seal just like a bearing bore should be round. Removal of material from the seal retainer if not warranted can egg shape the bore and cause seal distortion when the retainer is torqued. Distortion can be in the form of out of round or excessive crush.
Reducing the bore diameter for the seal will not change the I.D. of the seal to be tighter without distortion
Just like rod and main bearing clearance should be adjusted using bearing size and shaft size. Not crushing the bearing on the outside and hoping the inside reduces clearances.
From what has been discussed here on the board there seems to be some deficiencies with some of the aftermarket seal retainers not having enough room between it and #5 main cap. Thoughts are that oil drainage will not be fast enough and can overload the seal. 
I have also seen main studs / bolts hang up the seal retainer and not allow it to sit flush on the block.
Undersize seal surface is a possibility along with excessive material removal from line bore / hone process causing an egg shaped and or non centered seal bore
As for the belt sander I wasn't referring to you  but what was suggested to him by the manufacturer of them and how they recommended material removal  
I can go on about rear main seals, I have professionally for 25 years 
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: Commando1]
#1366183
01/11/13 01:55 PM
01/11/13 01:55 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Thank you Commando1 Yes this is the correct orientation On another note Lubrication, Again treat the seal as if it were a bearing. Lubricate with bearing assembly lube, Torco, Red-Line, Clevite Bearing Guard or even STP. Motor oil alone may not be enough as it can take quite a while for oil to migrate to the rear seal. Shaft seals are designed to ride on a film of oil just like a bearing
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Re: Third rear seal leaking - very frustrated!!!
[Re: Hooligan]
#1366186
01/11/13 03:08 PM
01/11/13 03:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
roadhazard
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,675
Akron, Ohio U.S.A.
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Quote:
Speaking of bearings...what about those bearings that have the angled grooves cut in them to divert oil away from the rear seal?
I don't even know if they are available anymore or if they even helped prevent leakage.
From what I've heard they are no longer available.
As stated earlier the seal is designed to ride on a film of oil for lubrication. If the seal does not have a concentric location of the lip to shaft or the parting halves are not properly aligned you will have problems more often than not.
Large main bearing oil clearances, high oil pressure and restricted oil drain back can overload the seal lip causing a leak path.
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