I remember back to the time when it was common to refer to a cam as being 1/4 race, 1/2 race, 3/4 race, full race...no in betweens, it was either one or the other..LOL!, the term for stage 1 , 2 , or 3 etc, for porting seems to be the fashion at this time, though it sets a standard for a set price & the amount of work done, which as seen does vary from one shop to another.

There's so many variations in combinations I prefer to stay with the custom porting theme for doing work

Once again,
We get well thought out information, presented in an easy to understand format, backed up with solid data. Sure, Fast has strong opinions, especially in the area of cylinder heads, but he's never been afraid to back those up with a solid foundation of facts, experience, and reason...which is why he's easily one of the most respected and sought out contributors to this board.

As Sg303 put it, a customer needs to have good communication with his machinist/porter to get the correct amount of modification for his budget/performance goals...obviously the guys who do this kind of work, and regularly post here show a penchant for good communication skills!!!

One of the most common mistakes I see customers/racers make is to order heads/porting based on intended growth of thier engine program...then they are dissapointed when the product doesn't perform well on thier mild 440, even though they clearly placed an order for the all-out 528 they intend to build in a year or two.

While we're talking about SRs, what should $1300 worth of work pay for....including valve job and resurface.

What I'm driving at: is it fair to compare CNC porting to hand porting at the same price point?

Zippy I think you'll find that the CNC labor vs manual labor on the porting will be the same. Although the CNC is alot faster someone has to pay for the initial cost of the machine. Also remember the CNC program had to be created using a hand ported set first. Could you imagine trying to pay off one of those by only charging 3 or 4 hours labor for the porting...yikes.

while there are certainly pros and cons for most things engine related, i like the "stage I", "stage II" type of concept when it comes to head porting in most circumstances.
it takes care of several issues....for both the customer and the supplier.
both sides know what the cost is, and what the expectations are, as well as exactly what work will be performed.

like Jeff, i used to just do as much work as what the customer wanted to spend.
sometimes that works well, sometimes its just the customer spending extra $$$ for almost no gain.

as an example.....say i charge $500 for a "stage I" prep on a set of heads, and $800 for a "stage II".
the customer may have $600 they want to spend for that portion of the motor build.
an extra $100 applied towards a "stage I" job isnt really going to do much of anything in terms of a performance gain when you have to divide the $100 worth of labor between 16 ports.
in most cases all it does is lighten the customers wallet a little, and they would have been better off spending that same $100 on something else.

for me, the step from a stage I to a stage II is what i feel is the amount of extra work thats necessary to make the heads enough better to show a performance difference.
trying to improve upon a stage I job, without going all the way to a stage II isnt an effective use of the available funds, IMO.

no, its not going to satisfy everyones needs....but it does work for the majority of the people i deal with.
i can tell them the price, what labor will be performed, and what they should flow when completed.
in a way, its a lot like having a set of heads CNC ported.
the CNC porting shop knows how much they are going to charge, and what they should flow when finished.
this is the same type of thing for us smaller shops that dont have CNC porting equipment, who are trying to satsify the needs for people who dont quite need the heads to be ported to that level.

the main purpose of this thread was more to educate the Moparts members(rather than argue the pros and cons of the "stage" porting philosophy), so that they would be more aware of the differences in the amount of work different shops do under the same name.
when shopping for heads, if you're dealing with a shop that does use the "stage" type of terminology for their work....dont just assume you know what you're getting for each level of porting/prep they offer.
ask them to explain what you'll be getting for your $$$.

this post was prompted by the AeroHead BB E heads i have in the shop now that got their "stage II" porting.
lets just say there are MUCH less modifications done to the ports that if i did them to my stage II package.
after seeing what was done to these heads....i can see why they are able to charge $250 less than i do for "stage II" porting on these heads.
in fact....they have less done to them than i do for my "stage I"(and its reflected in the flow numbers).

I just wanted to say Ive enjoyed this thread and all of the info you guys have provided. I plan on getting my SR's done this winter, as soon as I know what i will have for a new shortblock, I can move forward. Do either of you guys do welding repair on aluminum heads as well? So far all i know is a got some smashed valves and possibly had one piston hit the head, unless the valve slowed it down when the rod broke. I havent disassembled yet out of disgust. thanks again for all the info.

fast, I got a PM on another board about who to have port BB Eddy heads. I referred him to you and I hope he gets in contact with you. I told him what a sweet and wonderful guy you are!

The shop I play at does not have a flowbench. We do have a couple accessable, but obviously it's not free. What goes thru the shop is 40% stock rebuilds, 25% mild performance builds, 20% medium performance, local circle track, etc engines, and 15% high budget race engines. The basic "street port" as they refer to it, is $250. It sounds like Dwayne's Stage 1, bowls, throat, and opennings, but no flowbench numbers. They dont waste time porting on a set of heads that has marginal valve work done. So, add $250 for Serdi five angle valve job, plus guides if needed. The all out engines go hourly for porting, due to the cost of flowbench testing, and hand labor. I have SRs out of the box. They came with seats out of round, guides too tight, and large aluminum chips still in the port. I have out of the box eddys, with some of the same issues(no chips tho!!bonus!) The point is, when I see everyone recommending these aftermarket heads, it is very rare to see a mention of paying someone to check them out and correct them . It's always "bolt them on and go". We are constantly trying to balance between $$ and power, and 90% of the time, the $ dictates the result. I would rather have a great set of heads, for $2K, then a slightly above average set for $1200. aluminum or not. There are many guys that can do quality port work, but the higher the ability, the fewer there are that can do it. ( i am not on the level of these guys..lol) Anyway, the owner/customer must take it upon themselves to do the research and validating..Buyer beware. Personally, the "Stage" idea cant be appllied to manufacturers that dont deal in identical product. (906s from hughes, or Dwayne, or Aerohead can be apples to apples; Eddys vs. SRs vs. Bulldogs cannot IMO) Sadly, most buyers go by the manufacturers specs because that's what they have access to.

I guess it's a matter of the head porter to be "up front" with the customer & having an informed conversation with the fellow to see what he really needs, instead of taking his money & over spending in areas that won't get the desired results.

Guys,

This is a great thread, .. !!!!

After 26 years of porting heads, .. I haven't found and easy answer to this one! I think the key is like you guys pointed out, . it's up the the porting shop to discuss the work with the customer and estimate the project costs from there.

I do feel there's a place for each way to do things. I have "stage" porting prices for basic packages, .. bracket race, street, .. and it's similar to most shops, .. bowls, short turns, gasket match, valve job.

But that is a basic head prep that should be done to ANY cylinder head. The new castings that come out of the box aren't "ready to run" so this work needs to be done.

With my engineering background and pro stock experience most of my work these days is high end custom and design work to go to CnC. All of this work is quoted on a per project basis, .. the only way to do it.

Good thread guys, .. great to see head porters sharing like this.

Curtis

Sorry, can't add any "professional" input on this subject. However, I can throw in a few comments from my own experiences in the hobby...

"Stage <whatever> porting" doesn't mean zip to me anymore for just the reasons stated above. Tell me what you're going to do for the $ and we'll go from there.

No way I'll pay anybody to put a grinder to my heads who doesn't have the ability to flow test their results. Hmmm... guess that's partly why I bought my own flow bench a few years ago.

I've paid for cylinder head work from a number of different shops over the years and seen the work of quite a few others. At this point I'd say from what I've seen (limited as this may be in the grand scheme of things), maybe half of the work done was worth the money charged IMO. It's pretty disappointing to see the results of some "professional's" work, only to have to box the heads up and take them elsewhere to have the same job redone correctly.

It's a big confidence boost knowing I've found a cylinder head shop I trust to work on my stuff, even though I've got to ship my parts out of state to get the job done right. Too bad I haven't found a local shop to do basic block machine work, etc., that I feel the same way about.

the worth of the work performed is often times limited by what the market will bare.
some shops get close to 300 dollars to bore/hone with a plate, in another part of the country the same job can be had for about 180.00.

Brad,

You may be surprised, .. the "grump" is a fairly smart guy.
I don't know if he uses all the flow ratios and coef stuff, ..
my cuz works there, I'll have to ask.

But yea, things have changed. In the 80's I was offered a job at a few NASCAR teams, .. now if you don't have a degree in engineering they won't talk to you, . no matter what you've done in the past.

Curtis