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Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: Prince_Valiant] #1286797
08/21/12 12:07 PM
08/21/12 12:07 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
I Live Here
patrick  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
I'd do an updated version of dave's super duper mileage 318.

1) start with a mag 318. I'd pull the heads, measure how down in the bore the pistons are. should be ~.055 or so.

tear down to bare block, have the block decked ~0.035 to 0.040" and then run the Mr. Gasket .028" thick head gaskets

get the cam reground by bullet, using bullet's HR259/316 lobe for intake and exhaust. more economy, drop to the HR252/320 lobe on the intake

do a little home porting on the magnum heads following dulcich's may 2005 mopar muscle article-- get the heads redone, opening up the valve job to take advantage of the 1.92/1.625 valves. use hughes #1110 springs and retainers. redrill for LA intake

intake, I'd look for an LD340 or LD4B, open up to accept a t-quad, run a small tquad

I'd run headers.

tranny, I'd keep it simple and run an iron case A833OD if I could find one. aisin R154 would be second choice.

rear gear, 3.23's with the A833OD is a nice combo with 25-27" tall tires. if running 27-28" tall tires, you could go to a 3.55.

Last edited by patrick; 08/21/12 12:09 PM.

1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1286798
08/21/12 12:09 PM
08/21/12 12:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
Magnum heads don't fit a 273 with out a big bore notch or smaller valves and seats installed so not gonna work very well.

318 magnums need about .030 off the deck to get the pistons close enough to the top of the deck for quench with thin mopar head gaskets. Combine that with the factory .049 head gaskets and you get terrible quench.

318 magnums will make ALMOST as much power as a 360 magnum. The 318 had a better cam, more compression, and a flat top piston for better flame travel.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: HotRodDave] #1286799
08/21/12 04:22 PM
08/21/12 04:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick Offline
I Live Here
patrick  Offline
I Live Here

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
Quote:



318 magnums will make ALMOST as much power as a 360 magnum. The 318 had a better cam, more compression, and a flat top piston for better flame travel.




and stock for stock in a mid-late 90's ram, a 318 magnum can get ~19-20 or so highway MPG, while a 360 struggles to get 16.


1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: TC@HP2] #1286800
08/22/12 09:58 AM
08/22/12 09:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:


True. You can get a carb to be within a percent or two of an EFI, and at WOT they do tend to make mroe power than acomparable street injection. However, the big advantage of the efi is its learn on the fly adaptability over a wider range of conditions.

With that said though, I've never wanted to put one on my truck beause the payback over the carb I have tweaked within an inch of its life, is so long it would never really pay for its self in fuel savings.

BTW, the new Street Demon carbs are a bit of a hybrid AFB, Thermoquad design. You can get them with a polymer body, they use AFB rods and jets, they have small primaries with a 3 bbl design for the secondaries. Of course they will cost you some dough over swap meet stuff.




Hah! Yeah... i bet where you live and drive that it took some doing to get that thing sorted out. I'd be hesitant to shrug off all that work too...

Not that i can afford such things... but that new Holley with the all-black and the alum (???) body has all the tricks and none ov the weight as well...

I'm still surprised the 3-barrel idea wasn't taken further in performance circles.

Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: Prince_Valiant] #1286801
08/22/12 10:01 AM
08/22/12 10:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

I got 25mpg in the valiant's first version...1-2 mpg better than the original 318 did.

Basic stuff too...basic 360, basic heads w/ 1.88 valves and 3 angle valve job, MP 268 .455 cam, eddy performer, holley 600, MP ignition, headers through 833 OD manual trans and 2.94 gears. Ran 14.2 in the 1/4 and when driven easily (60-65mph) would pull down terrific mileage.




Thats not bad at all... especially considering that cam and intake are pretty dated designs and thinking.

Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: patrick] #1286802
08/22/12 10:04 AM
08/22/12 10:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

I'd do an updated version of dave's super duper mileage 318.

1) start with a mag 318. I'd pull the heads, measure how down in the bore the pistons are. should be ~.055 or so.

tear down to bare block, have the block decked ~0.035 to 0.040" and then run the Mr. Gasket .028" thick head gaskets

get the cam reground by bullet, using bullet's HR259/316 lobe for intake and exhaust. more economy, drop to the HR252/320 lobe on the intake

do a little home porting on the magnum heads following dulcich's may 2005 mopar muscle article-- get the heads redone, opening up the valve job to take advantage of the 1.92/1.625 valves. use hughes #1110 springs and retainers. redrill for LA intake

intake, I'd look for an LD340 or LD4B, open up to accept a t-quad, run a small tquad

I'd run headers.

tranny, I'd keep it simple and run an iron case A833OD if I could find one. aisin R154 would be second choice.

rear gear, 3.23's with the A833OD is a nice combo with 25-27" tall tires. if running 27-28" tall tires, you could go to a 3.55.




That sounds like a good plan... but you're definitely spending way past my budget here.

I'm still on the fence about the 833OD but i just cant get past the ratios. I was in a Demon with a hot 340 and one ov those OD's and i absolutely hated that 1-2 shift. Why the hell they didn't change the 2nd ratio as well i'd like to know.

Another stupid thing is i just sold one ov those last year...

Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: patrick] #1286803
08/22/12 10:11 AM
08/22/12 10:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Quote:



318 magnums will make ALMOST as much power as a 360 magnum. The 318 had a better cam, more compression, and a flat top piston for better flame travel.




and stock for stock in a mid-late 90's ram, a 318 magnum can get ~19-20 or so highway MPG, while a 360 struggles to get 16.




Heh heh... and the onslaught ov ever-conflicting information marches on. I think for me its just going to come down to whatever pops up first for a good price. I'd still prefer the 360 i think. A 360 Magnum drop-in and down the road perhaps a purpose-built 318 Magnum.

Further... i phoned Keisler this morning and i dont know what they were smoking when they first started advertising that T45 'RS' kit, but they've definitely sobered up now. I swear i have an E-mail ad with a full 'RS' kit under 2K. Today i was informed it'd be very close to 4K, and i'll have to murder my T-bar crossmember and shifter hump to install it. I guess y'all were right... absolutely nothing comes out ov Keisler for under $4000.

Funny how pretty much every aftermarket 5-speed option hovers around the 4-5K mark. Its definitely a conspiracy. They are all in cahoots with the credit-card companies and big oil...

Junkyard Mickey-Mouse it is then...

Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: Pale_Roader] #1286804
08/22/12 10:48 AM
08/22/12 10:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,395
Pikes Peak Country
T
TC@HP2 Offline
master
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T

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Pikes Peak Country
Quote:


Funny how pretty much every aftermarket 5-speed option hovers around the 4-5K mark. Its definitely a conspiracy.




In economics they call this a market correction. One vendor took the risk and proved out that people are willing to pay that much for it, so everyone else inches up to the mark and suddenly the whole market is hanging within a few percentage points of each other.

Same thing happens with tubular upper control arms. You'd be hard pressed to put much more than $15 worth of material in to a basic bushing end tubular control arm, yet mopar versions routinly sell for $200+. Because that is where the market it at. At that price, I've figured out how to adapt the $50 chevy units to my car, plus correct the geometry that normally comes with the $600 price tag.

Junkyard mickey mouse ain't always a bad thing.

Re: BEST possible MPG from non-EFI/computer combo? [Re: TC@HP2] #1286805
08/24/12 08:08 AM
08/24/12 08:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader Offline OP
Swears too much
Pale_Roader  Offline OP
Swears too much

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Quote:

Quote:


Funny how pretty much every aftermarket 5-speed option hovers around the 4-5K mark. Its definitely a conspiracy.




In economics they call this a market correction. One vendor took the risk and proved out that people are willing to pay that much for it, so everyone else inches up to the mark and suddenly the whole market is hanging within a few percentage points of each other.

Same thing happens with tubular upper control arms. You'd be hard pressed to put much more than $15 worth of material in to a basic bushing end tubular control arm, yet mopar versions routinly sell for $200+. Because that is where the market it at. At that price, I've figured out how to adapt the $50 chevy units to my car, plus correct the geometry that normally comes with the $600 price tag.




Nope. You are wrong. Big oil is in on this, as is Al Gore i'm sure. I've called up Jesse Ventura and there will be a show on this later this year. The ba$tards.

Quote:

Junkyard mickey mouse ain't always a bad thing.




Now you are right. So right.

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