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Engine too far forward #1286485
08/16/12 06:23 PM
08/16/12 06:23 PM
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California
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I'm putting a few facts together and thinking my engine is too far forward in the chassis ('70 Duster with newly installed 440 using Schumacher mounts):

1) The idler arm does not quite fit into the recess of the #187 oil pan (the recess is about 3/4-inch too far forward for it to be correct).

2) The Pitman arm hits the Pro-Parts header (if the engine was 1/2-inch farther back, this would not happen).

3) When installing the transmission mount, the bolt holes in the tranny did not line up properly with the holes in the mount, and I had to make the slots in the mount longer (again by about 3/4-inch) to get the bolts in. Again, if the tranny (727) were about 3/4-inch farther back, the tranny mount would have aligned.

I didn't put all this together until yesterday. I had thought I was going to have to dent the headers and oil pan. But I had just enough of a glimmer of intelligence to overcome my neanderthal instincts.

As I said, I'm using Schumacher mounts. Schumacher emailed and said I could maybe get 1/4-inch adjustment to the rear using the slots in the brackets. But I need more than that. How much rearward movement could I expect if I loosened up the K-member bolts (supporting the engine, of course)and moved the whole K-member to the rear? Has anyone else had to do this?

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286486
08/16/12 06:39 PM
08/16/12 06:39 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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Quote:

How much rearward movement could I expect if I loosened up the K-member bolts (supporting the engine, of course)and moved the whole K-member to the rear?


none, the holes are round not slotted, it is a tight fit and you wouldn't want to move it if you could as it would affect to many related areas nor should you have to slot the tranny mt. Something ain't right with the mtr mts on the block. I put a 400 in a 69 valiant keeping the /6 Kmember & iirc I used shumacher adapter mts (the ones where you trim a little bit of material out of the mt welded on the K member) & everything fit perfect


live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286487
08/16/12 07:24 PM
08/16/12 07:24 PM
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Minnesota
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Mad Accountant Offline
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Any chance you have the mounts on the wrong side of the engine? Don't remember if that was even possible or not. Other possibilities may be the wrong mounts (they changed in 73, you may have the 73+ mounts instead of the 67-72s), or maybe a different years K frame is in the car. I bought the whole kit for my 69 and had no problems.

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: Mad Accountant] #1286488
08/16/12 08:04 PM
08/16/12 08:04 PM
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California
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I don't think installing the mounts on the wrong side of the car would make a difference. They are the smaller A-body-type ice-cream-sandwich mounts. There is only one part number right-to-left. And they're the mounts supplied by Schumacher with the brackets.

The K-frame is not original to the car. I'm not sure what it came out of, but it's supposedly a "reconditioned" unit for an A-body, A-engine. It came with the car.

The only other thing I can think of is the way the brackets bolt to the engine. Maybe they could be bolted to the rear of the cast-in bosses instead of the front of them. I don't know how I did it or if it can even be done wrong (from what I remember, they would only go on one way). I'm gong to check them when I get home.

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286489
08/16/12 08:31 PM
08/16/12 08:31 PM
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N.W. Florida
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Fat_Mike Online work
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Are the mounts on the front side of the ears on the block?

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286490
08/16/12 08:32 PM
08/16/12 08:32 PM
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West Tennessee
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Quote:

I don't think installing the mounts on the wrong side of the car would make a difference. They are the smaller A-body-type ice-cream-sandwich mounts. There is only one part number right-to-left. And they're the mounts supplied by Schumacher with the brackets.

The K-frame is not original to the car. I'm not sure what it came out of, but it's supposedly a "reconditioned" unit for an A-body, A-engine. It came with the car.

The only other thing I can think of is the way the brackets bolt to the engine. Maybe they could be bolted to the rear of the cast-in bosses instead of the front of them. I don't know how I did it or if it can even be done wrong (from what I remember, they would only go on one way). I'm gong to check them when I get home.




Bet you're on the right track.


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Re: Engine too far forward [Re: Fat_Mike] #1286491
08/16/12 09:47 PM
08/16/12 09:47 PM
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Minnesota
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Quote:

Are the mounts on the front side of the ears on the block?




I think if the mounts are on the front side of the bosses, the motor would be too far back. Mine are on the rear. I'm gonna stick with wrong year mounts or wrong K Frame in the car. Schumacher should be able to give you some insight into what to look for to determine which K frame you've got. I don't think the bosses were ever changed on any of the blocks, so it would have to be the year of the K frame that determines which mounts you need.

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: Mad Accountant] #1286492
08/16/12 10:07 PM
08/16/12 10:07 PM
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California
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I checked the brackets, and they're on the rear of the bosses; however, it looks like that's the only way they'd go.

I'll see if I can take a couple of pictures to post.

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286493
08/16/12 10:57 PM
08/16/12 10:57 PM
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California
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Here are pics of the engine mounts and tranny mount.

7338401-Driver'sside.JPG (195 downloads)
Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286494
08/16/12 10:59 PM
08/16/12 10:59 PM
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California
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Passenger's side (previous was driver's side)

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286495
08/16/12 11:00 PM
08/16/12 11:00 PM
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California
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Tranny mount

7338411-Tranny.JPG (73 downloads)
Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286496
08/16/12 11:11 PM
08/16/12 11:11 PM
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AZ, USA
moon Offline
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I have a 440 in my 71 Duster, I have a 68 A body BB K member from the factory. The driver's side is way forward as you can see and I have an 8 quart oil pan and the back of the K member is more rounded so the engine pan clears. You gotta have a special block with the 2 bolt holes in the front. As shown in the picture i will also post. The engine doesnt sit squarely in the bay, it sits about an inch and a half on the passenger side. the tranny mount bolts right up. The driveline is about an inch or so shorter on the duster than a dart.

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: moon] #1286497
08/16/12 11:12 PM
08/16/12 11:12 PM
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Posts: 136
AZ, USA
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here is the pic of the mount

7338431-cgh.jpg (86 downloads)
Re: Engine too far forward [Re: moon] #1286498
08/16/12 11:34 PM
08/16/12 11:34 PM
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Lincoln Nebraska
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RapidRobert Offline
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I think I'd mount the trans where it would be if you had not slotted the trans mount then with the front suspended slightly see if you can ID if it's a kmember problem or the schumaker mounts. With the trans in the above correct OE location will the idler/headers clear?


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Re: Engine too far forward [Re: RapidRobert] #1286499
08/16/12 11:49 PM
08/16/12 11:49 PM
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SW Fla.
CYACOP Offline
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My guess is still the brackets are mounted on the wrong side of the ears on the block. Thats about the distance you seem to off. I remember paying close attention to mine the last time I swapped them over to a different block.

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: CYACOP] #1286500
08/17/12 12:11 AM
08/17/12 12:11 AM
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California
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After looking at the block, I don't think it's possible to install the brackets on the front of the bosses.

I'm attaching photos of the interference with the Pitman at the header and the Idler not fitting into the recess.

Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286501
08/17/12 12:15 AM
08/17/12 12:15 AM
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California
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Next is idler interference at pan.

7338529-Idlerrecess.JPG (70 downloads)
Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286502
08/17/12 12:36 AM
08/17/12 12:36 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Send the mounts back and use a set of eephant ears, set the motor where and how high you want it I do But I use fender well headers also


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Engine too far forward [Re: 70Drop] #1286503
08/17/12 12:42 AM
08/17/12 12:42 AM
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Memphis
HemiRick Offline
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The rubber isolaters are rotated 90 degrees from where they should be. The the little bump on the isolater? Theres a corresponding hole in the bracket for it to fit into.


Take care,
Rick
68 Coronet R/T 440 & 68 Charger 528 Hemi,and 5 Challengers! 6 cyl, 318, 360, 383, 451
Re: Engine too far forward [Re: HemiRick] #1286504
08/17/12 12:53 AM
08/17/12 12:53 AM
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California
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Quote:

The rubber isolaters are rotated 90 degrees from where they should be. The the little bump on the isolater? Theres a corresponding hole in the bracket for it to fit into.




Yeah, I know it's supposed to, but the dimple and the recess in the bracket didn't line up - that's another problem, but I could have lived with that.

And I've thought about how rotating or flipping the mounts themselves may affect this, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect how far forward or back the engine is - the distance between the two studs is always the same.

And, as someone else alluded to, the problem where the Idler doesn't fit properly in the recess pretty much has to be an issue with the engine mounts - The engine moves with the K-member, not independently.

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