Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: Daniel Niclas]
#1244299
06/03/12 09:29 PM
06/03/12 09:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558
So Cal
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Quote:
... Leaf springs from my experience can be unforgiving and overly sensitive to imperfections in the road. Perhaps a tunable set of AFCOs can provide the desired results. ...
In my racing experience setting up, crewing, and building... the leaf springs are more forgiving on the track than a 4 link or link type rear.
By happenstance sort of, our track changed the rules to allow 4 link rear suspension. Nothing else really changed. We put a new rear clip with 4 link on one of our cars. But the other 3 driver development cars ran had leaf springs. Sometimes the leaf springs car would win and sometimes they would not. Our most experienced driver (multi champ, 2nd in track history with wins) said the leaf spring car were more forgiving on the track.
The biggest gain with the 4 link was adjust ability. Rear steer, roll center, weight jacks, roll steer, spring rate changes, availible consistent spring rates, etc were now much easier and more precise to change between test sessions. But the 4 link systems are more expensive to repair and not as impact resistant as a leaf spring setup. You end up replacing bent track bars and bent expensive track bar sperical rod ends.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 06/03/12 09:33 PM.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: Daniel Niclas]
#1244302
06/04/12 11:26 AM
06/04/12 11:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405
Pikes Peak Country
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Not sure what you need to hear to feel safe about your purchase. Usage and mileage certainly are factors and if your car is not a daily driver and you live in an area where roads are decently maintained, you may never have any issues.
If its any consolation, there are strut suspensions out that that do not have the magic 16" load spread on the control arms and they manage to absorb a fair amount of abuse along with daily usage. While they can and do occasionally fail, it certainly has some mitigating factors, such as maintanence, and is typically not a major newsworthy item. Is that to say the AlterK is all that, I dont' know. I've never used one. But it isn't a huge bane to reliability either.
IMO, a lot of the benefit of these aftermarket suspensions comes in a few key areas; reduced weight, improved precision, greater adjustability and match spring/shock rates to the application.
To address these; you can reduce weight in the nose of the car in more economical ways than replacing the entire suspension. Fiberglass cost about $10 a pound to loose weight with. An Alterk costs you around $50 a pound.
Improved precision is often times comparing used original or partially rebuilt systems to an entirely brand new conversion. I would epxect all new everything to have better precision than original. Will a R&P maintain that precision for longer than a recirculating ball gear box, probably. But I also doubt most of these cars are accumulating that many miles any more to make a fair comparison a decade later.
Greater adjustability is a benefit that is not as easily obtained with stock parts. The factory mopar design does have limitations, but can usually show sizeable improvements with a few key pieces being changed out. If you drive in an environment that necessitates rapid changes to spring and shock rates or slight variations in geometric changes, then the aftermarket set ups do have a considerable advantage. However, this tends to be highly contested competitive environments where a lot of this vintage of mopar do not play.
Finally is the matching of spring/shock rates to the application. This is, IMO, the biggest benefit of these systems as you have the designers or technical staff designating what peices play well together. Contrast this to your average street enthusiast who tends to buy the biggest this and the cheapest that and munges them all together and then its easy to see why things don't perform well and along the way the car has lost a fair amount of reliability and comfort as well as performance. If you can understand how all the peices work together and where to compromise and where to splurge to get the matched set up to ahcieve the proper rates sets and percentages, it is entirely possible for a 40 year old design to match a modern design in performance and comfort. But, not everyone can pull that rabbit out of the hat and if thats the case, you may be better served by having someone else figure it all out for you.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1244303
06/04/12 08:44 PM
06/04/12 08:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
Daniel Niclas
OP
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OP
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Posts: 10
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Thank you TC@HP2 for this very helpful and insightful response. As mentioned before there are many good solutions depending on the circumstances. I will approach use of my new system the same way I approach any repair or upgrade: with restrained enthusiasm.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: Supercuda]
#1244304
06/09/12 05:21 PM
06/09/12 05:21 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
Daniel Niclas
OP
member
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OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 10
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Quote:
You got your degree in engineering where?
Mickey Mouse U?
If you cannot get a stock based E body suspension to handle better than a Camry you are in absolutely NO position to comment on the validity of anything mechanical or suspension related.
Bachelor’s degree: UC Berkeley Ph.D.: UC Los Angeles (kinda close to Disney Land :-)
Where did you get your degree?
I didn’t join this board to discredit anyone or proclaim my expertise, merely to get help
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: Daniel Niclas]
#1244305
06/09/12 09:51 PM
06/09/12 09:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Hard knock U
If you cannot get a stock based Mopar suspension to handle better than a Camry you are still not in a position to comment on it regardless of how high or deep it's piled.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1244307
06/10/12 12:08 PM
06/10/12 12:08 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
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Posts: 14,889
up yours
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Come on, he's a shill for the Altercation setup. Comes in here dinging the stock suspension while totally displaying his complete ignorance (I am being nice here and assuming it's ignorance and not a deliberate attempt to sell the altercation) and expects us to treat him nice?
Really?
In the handling forum?
Where people her know how to outhandle a Camry, know how to drive a handling car and know how to do it for less than the supposed thousands of dollars he spent only to be unable to outhandle a Camry?
Really?
Mr PiledHigherandDeeper can take a flying fark as far as I am concerned and I am not impressed by any company that tries this crap to sell their stuff.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: Supercuda]
#1244308
06/10/12 05:51 PM
06/10/12 05:51 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793 Utah
topbrent
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
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I won't comment on the AlterKtion vs. OE type Mopar stuff, but the handling like a new Camry comment is not completely unfounded. Hotchkis loaded up a 67 coronet full of their suspension parts and compared it against the slalom times of several new vehicles. http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/chassis/hrdp_0909_mopar_suspension_bolt_ons/viewall.htmlAfter the full Hotchkis install, and with a pro driver in the seat, the slalom times equaled those of a 2001 Honda Accord. - New cars handle pretty great, comparatively.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: topbrent]
#1244309
06/10/12 06:22 PM
06/10/12 06:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074 Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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It's sad but true, a new Camry SE runs low 14's in the 1/4 and pulls over .8g on the skid and stops in under 120 feet . Those are good numbers and you would need to have lot's of set up time into an old car to put a beating on one on a road track or autocross.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: BergmanAutoCraft]
#1244310
06/10/12 06:45 PM
06/10/12 06:45 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338 the house on the left.
cogen80
master
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,338
the house on the left.
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Quote:
The one and only alter k I've touched had a broken weld at that tie rod sleeve that is welded to the steering arm. In other higher end systems they use dropped steering arms to eliminate that problem. The smaller than stock wheel bearings are also a little puzzling to me. But then again, I'm sure its fine for most.
you still working at XV ? if so are you running their set up on your dart? hows it work?
sorry for the high jack..
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 67autocross]
#1244312
06/10/12 09:59 PM
06/10/12 09:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558
So Cal
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Quote:
It's sad but true, a new Camry SE runs low 14's in the 1/4 and pulls over .8g on the skid and stops in under 120 feet . Those are good numbers and you would need to have lot's of set up time into an old car to put a beating on one on a road track or autocross.
This Challenger with a 440 motor and Hotchkis TVS, 1.00" t-bars, and 245/60/15 BFG tires pulls .85g on the skid pad.
Those tires do not help at all. Someone with those T-bars and front a rear sway bars should be able to get close to those skid pad numbers.
But a skid pad is only steady state cornering. A slalom has the car transistioning side to side. That why the shock alone were such an improvement on the Hot Rod 67 Coronet test.
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2010/08/01/hmn_tips1.html
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1244313
06/10/12 10:05 PM
06/10/12 10:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,477 Answering the call of the wild
ThermoQuad
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,477
Answering the call of the wild
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Give me $23,200 [msrp for a camry]and I will give you an A body that eats Camry's with ease. Pick your poison Alterkation or torsion bars, I don't care. The mopar action dig on the alterkation was poor at best and a twist for sure. The comment about the 200 million mph daytona was out of context as well as any car with a million point cage or the proper stiffening will handle fine with the stock mopar torsion bars. I built a big fat heavy 1970 Charger RT that runs Thunder Road on hemi torsion bars and springs and does it really really well. How the heck did i do that??? Don't believe me? June 25th Watkins Glen...see for yourself. I looked hard on line for pics of the 200 million mph wing car suspension etc and there are none to be found. They have kept quite a lid on the details of that car. A BIG lid! If I was an expert like Rick claims to be and I asked those guys what they were using for suspension and they gave that glib answer I would be looking quite hard at the car and not taken their word as gospel. I would also have some facts to back up my words Lot's of hot air from some of you guys...
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1244314
06/10/12 10:25 PM
06/10/12 10:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
A57_RT
Parts Problem
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Parts Problem
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
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If ive ever seen a post thats beating a dead horse, aot of the ones concerning the alterk unit is one of them.
Wont get into a rant, but the people who have them seem to have no issues. I see it as no different then a preference over a Big Block, Small Block, and since these castings are 40 years old why not a new gen hemi?
For 5 years ive been beating mine on a reg bassis, from -26 to 94 degrees (yes at -26, only our carbed vehicles would start). Snow and rain. Some of this has been on harsh dirt mountain roads.
When I got my unit I cleaned it, etch primed it, sealed and then put a good top coat and then clear, it cleans up as new even today.
Weather a stock, modified stock, RMS or XV unt, ect....if the owner is happy imo thats all that matters.
Toss this topic in with the wheel spacers, welded k members, it cant work, it wont work into a golden 5 gallon bucket and some would complain it should of been a copper bucket.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: slantzilla]
#1244315
06/14/12 02:31 PM
06/14/12 02:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39 Milford, IL
68Plymouths
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member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
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Quote:
In on 1!
MOPAR stock front suspension is crap. Excessive caster gain, massive bump steer and a torsion bar. Really? Tanks and trailers have a torsion bar suspension. I don't recall seeing torsion bars on any late models or NASCAR cars. Hmmm, they seem to tak a lot of corners at high speeds effectively.
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