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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1228747
05/10/12 02:58 PM
05/10/12 02:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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Exactly, a driveline failure is not the same as a suspension failure. Mopars did not loose any races because of suspension failure. Suspensions are what we are talking about here. However, they did manage to qualify number one several times, and typically were in the top qualifiers on any given day. That is a good reflection of how well the suspension was working on that particular day. Engine and transmission failure is what kept them from consistently visiting the podium.
So again, any detractors please chime in; what is so bad about the mopar suspension design that a modern design has all over it? Shocks, those can be changed, camber gain, hardly. Toe & bump, that can be adjusted, caster, again, adjustment. Only things I can think of are perhaps somewhat lighter weight (depending on design used), more compact packaging (again, design dependant), and greater spring choice (if you need a range of choice). SO, with a street driven mopar, how are those items so far superior that they can run laps around a classic longitudal t-bar?
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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1228749
05/10/12 03:11 PM
05/10/12 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,018
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 31,018
Oregon
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The original Mopar suspension design is very good. So good, that 50 years later it still works just fine at 150 mph on any road race course. Wheel travel is one limitation as is ride height. You just can't get the factory suspension low enough to go really fast. If you lower the car too much you run out of travel and then you hit the wall when the suspension bottoms out. Some mods can be made, but they start to get rather involved.
One really big drawback is the factory steering box and linkage. And to change that over to a rack requires a bucket load of changes. Which then naturally leads to products like what MagnumForce and RMS and others are building.
But, if you're willing to live with the limitations of the factory ride height and steering box, and you can build headers that clear the torsion bars, then the factory suspension design works just fine up past 150 mph road racing.
For a 200 mph car you would need to make some fairly significant changes.
Last edited by AndyF; 05/10/12 03:11 PM.
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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: savoy64]
#1228752
05/10/12 04:22 PM
05/10/12 04:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
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Quote:
but when you bray about your superiority it brings to mind the mopar action article about putting viper brakes on a B body---they put on one side and went out to test the brakes--60 mph panic stop the car stops straight---their conclusion mopar made good brakes to begin with---if you want to spend the money on new shiny viper brakes--ok---just dont start bragging about how superior you are-
this it the reason I take a lot of what "experts' say with a grain of salt....
1) this is not a repeatable scientific test in a controlled environment
2) the point of the viper brakes isn't necessarily total clamping force--a single panic stop from 60 should lock up the wheels, even with the standard 10.87" rotors as tire grip will be the limiting factor. the advantage to a viper brake swap is the rigidity of the caliper, which helps in brake feel and modulation, and the larger swept area of the pad, which should help in heat dissipation and fade resistance, as well as the larger diameter rotor (11.75" using the larger R body rotors) which also have better heat dissipation due to larger swept area AND more mass. Try this test from 100mph or 4 back-to-back-to-back-to-back stops and lets see if it still tracks straight.
stuff like this, or beating on a spindle clamped in a vice with a 20lb sledge are some of the "testing" that makes me shake my head....
there are advantages and disadvantages to each system (as Andy noted, the larger driver of a modern coil over system like the alterKtion are 1) rack and pinion steering 2) package savings and 3) weight savings; the lesser advantages are more adjustability/tunability and a larger choice of brake options
as far as lack of 100k hour durability testing, etc on aftermarket setups, yeah, that's true, but with most well engineered designs (which IMHO the alterK is one of the better engineered designs out there), they are typically overbuilt with a bit of a safety factor in them. With some of the "sky is falling" statements throughout this thread, makes me wonder if e-booger's head may potentially explode looking at any street rod that has a coil over front suspension and ladder bar/coil over rear suspension in them because they're not OEM parts....
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DRJDVM]
#1228756
05/10/12 07:23 PM
05/10/12 07:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,388
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
What I just don't get in the mopar world is how so many people think its blastphamy to change ANYTHING on a mopar
I'm mostly a Chevy guy..... This is my first mopar....
The mopar guys (not all of them) just seem to want to fight against anything but stock..... Just for it being something other than stock.... And you can't convince them otherwise no matter what you say or do.... If its not original it's crap...... Its just a different attitude in the Chevy world
I guess my point was to be open to other opinions and other options.... They may be right or wrong.... But don't fight against it just because it's not stock.... Newer things and change can be better...
Since I spent a decade in the Chevy and Ford world building and driving race cars, and I can say that I've noticed this same thing. However, there are some reasons for that.
First and foremost is the point is that when you deal with GM parts, you have a very wide choice and a great amount of variety of those parts. In many cases, you can buy a new part that is equal to performance of the original for less than what an original part costs. From that point you can then choose how much performance your willing to pay for as the wide variety of vendors and the wide variety of pieces available means if you want to pay for a little more performance than original, you can pay a little more money. If you want a lot more performance, you pay a lot more money. The point is the selection, price points and levels of performance are wide open.
Even the Ford guys have more options the you do with a mopar. Granted, not as wide as the GM camp, but again, they have a wide variety of parts froma wide selection of vendors. In the occasioanl odd ball part they can and do get creative because it likely is just an overlooked market item, for now, and there will be a rush to fill the void.
Because of this variety, it has created a more adventerous consumer base that is willing to pick up whatever choice maybe available. If it sucks, you simply upgrade to the next level and pass your junk off at the next swap meet.
In the mopar world, the exact opposite has happened. Very few vendors have come to market with items and when they do, there are very few levels of selection. This has created a very gaurded and cautious consumer base that is not apt to quickly jump from one product to the next and it doesn't help at all that if you are product jumping, if the vendor has selection to allow it, it will cost you 2x over the stock stuff and 3-5x the GM stuff. In many instances the only reason we have the support we have today is because the value of everything has gotten so high that vendors are willing to risk the tool up costs to provide a new part.
On those occasions when aftermarket parts have come to the counter, it occasionaly happens that you may be paying more for no better performance than some of the original stuff.
As a result of the conditions above, mopar guys tend to be a lot more apt to say "show me the money" rather than simply take a vendors word for it. In that case, you run into a number of suppliers who simply have no data to support their claim. If sales are slow, then feedback is going to be even slower which means they are not going to be able to tell potential customers that person ABC is running our goods and they won XYZ using them. The mopar community used to be pretty small and they talked a lot amongst themselves and bad vendors were weeded out pretty quickly.
You also have the case of diminshing returns on those goods. Again, since the cost of mopar parts tends to be high, it drives a review of performance and its ability to be acheived in a different light. If the stock stuff can achieve a performance level compatible with 90% of the drivers out there, there is going to be very little motivation for many to move beyond that. If it costs stock x2 to get to a 95% performance level, that again thins the buyer base. If it costs stock x4 to get to 98%, there again is another level of exclusion. If it costs stock x8 to get to 99%, then your talking about a very limited market segment that will not support very many sellers. Combine this with market conditions where those particular buyers who are at the 1% level are buying cars that are stock because being stock is what makes them so valuable, and you have the conditions that have made the mopar market what it is today.
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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: AndyF]
#1228758
05/10/12 09:51 PM
05/10/12 09:51 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
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Quote:
The original Mopar suspension design is very good. So good, that 50 years later it still works just fine at 150 mph on any road race course. <snip!>
For a 200 mph car you would need to make some fairly significant changes.
Hmmm. I spoke to Lee Sicilio, who went 237 MPH (2-way average) with his original '69 Daytona about 10 years ago. I asked him what he did to the suspension. He said "all stock". I said, "You mean you kept stock geometry, just added bigger bars, shocks, bushings, yada...?". He said "No, stock". I said: "So, you just freshened it all up?" He made me feel stupid, reiterating: "It is all stock. original. Untouched. I'm the original owner".
I have the original SAE papers on these suspension designs. Geometry-wise, and in on-road performance, They were, literally, light-years ahead of the competition. Only in cost and NVH did they fall short.
Rick
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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: can.al]
#1228761
05/11/12 12:29 AM
05/11/12 12:29 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,419
Kalispell Mt.
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the mopars are just too cool, rare and valuable on there own to chop them up. The average guy can't afford to buy a mopar and chop it up but any hillbilly out there can find, buy and afford to chop up a stupid camaro, nova or rustang. Mopar never flooded the market with crap box, dirt cheap 2 door RWD v8 cars. Every mopar is rare compared to those kind of cars. That is why most mopar guys are opposed to chopping up their cool cars.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1228763
05/11/12 12:41 AM
05/11/12 12:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
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Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
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So the car has an injected, stroker Hemi, cage, etc,etc and.. Quote:
It is all stock. original. Untouched
With 40+ year old suspension bushings, tie rod ends, etc, etc.. 
Ok....
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Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: patrick]
#1228764
05/11/12 12:51 AM
05/11/12 12:51 AM
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
but when you bray about your superiority it brings to mind the mopar action article about putting viper brakes on a B body---they put on one side and went out to test the brakes--60 mph panic stop the car stops straight---their conclusion mopar made good brakes to begin with---if you want to spend the money on new shiny viper brakes--ok---just dont start bragging about how superior you are-
this it the reason I take a lot of what "experts' say with a grain of salt....
1) this is not a repeatable scientific test in a controlled environment
2) the point of the viper brakes isn't necessarily total clamping force--a single panic stop from 60 should lock up the wheels, even with the standard 10.87" rotors as tire grip will be the limiting factor. the advantage to a viper brake swap is the rigidity of the caliper, which helps in brake feel and modulation, and the larger swept area of the pad, which should help in heat dissipation and fade resistance, as well as the larger diameter rotor (11.75" using the larger R body rotors) which also have better heat dissipation due to larger swept area AND more mass. Try this test from 100mph or 4 back-to-back-to-back-to-back stops and lets see if it still tracks straight.
stuff like this, or beating on a spindle clamped in a vice with a 20lb sledge are some of the "testing" that makes me shake my head....
there are advantages and disadvantages to each system (as Andy noted, the larger driver of a modern coil over system like the alterKtion are 1) rack and pinion steering 2) package savings and 3) weight savings; the lesser advantages are more adjustability/tunability and a larger choice of brake options
as far as lack of 100k hour durability testing, etc on aftermarket setups, yeah, that's true, but with most well engineered designs (which IMHO the alterK is one of the better engineered designs out there), they are typically overbuilt with a bit of a safety factor in them. With some of the "sky is falling" statements throughout this thread, makes me wonder if e-booger's head may potentially explode looking at any street rod that has a coil over front suspension and ladder bar/coil over rear suspension in them because they're not OEM parts....
While Mr E's sledge hammer test on spindles may not be the norm for stress analysis on parts, it's still acurate from a real world perspective. The cast spindle broke, the forged one didn't. I guess he could've made a fixture for a press and used that to get them to break and noted the force needed for each, but still, the final outcome would be the same.
Mr E's points seem valid to me, and in your own words, the Alter K HASN'T had the 100K hour durability test, while the factory stuff has, and has been shown to more than competitive with any other suspension system.
Again I don't hate the Alter K and it has it's place, I just don't think it's any better than what the factory stuff can be made into, and inferior in alot of ways.
AND I'm not a purist in the sense that if it doesn't have a 509 cam and a torker intake it's junk. I personally dig on the Predator heads, although other guys lose their minds over them for not being "traditional" (although, they have a striking resemblance to a poly head, which Mopar used since '51, 14 years before GM, and 18 years befor Ford). So I'm not a hater of anything "not traditional" and relish in the past, I just don't think Mopar's NEED a coil over suspension to handle, plus they're expensive
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