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Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228665 05/07/12 11:56 PM 05/07/12 11:56 PM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA Kern Dog Striving for excellence
Kern Dog Striving for excellence Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA	Quote: No need to beef up the shock towers with the AlterK. The upper shock/spring bracket is part of the AlterK. You don't use the original shock tower, as I understand it. I understand that the coil over design is supported by the redesigned K member. In factory form, the "spring" action and resistance is divided between the frame rails and the torsion bar crossmember. With the RMS, now everything centers around the 4 bolts retaining the K member. Crappy in stock form? Sure, you are entitled to your opinion, but people that I respect disagree with you. Name any suspension from the other American automakers that had a better design? I'll agree that the idler arm is a weak point. It flexes more than it should, but the traditional torsion bar design allowed for the forces (AND weight) of the suspension to be spread out. As much as it is a pisser for header clearance, REAR steer is better for weight balance since the weight of the components are closer to the center of the car. Look at any GM suspension of the 60s or 70s. BIG lower A arms, fatter sway bars with longer levers, front steer with longer steering columns.... ALL of that conspires to move weight away from center. Fords? You want to hear about header interference? How about shock towers the size of the world trade center TWIN towers! That design puts a coil spring ABOVE the upper control arm !!??? GREAT ! lets put the weight up HIGHER in the car!

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228666 05/07/12 11:58 PM 05/07/12 11:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 43,969 Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy Rhinodart Rhinotruck
Rhinodart Rhinotruck Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 43,969 Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy	Quote: No need to beef up the shock towers with the AlterK. The upper shock/spring bracket is part of the AlterK. You don't use the original shock tower, as I understand it. You are right Jim, I guess I kinda worded it wrong. I put an Alter-K in a car but it has been awhile. I have been to Bill's shop and have seen first-hand what kind of engineering and design that goes into each suspension system he builds and it is good enough for me! The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it. JB Rhinehart, Realist A-Body's RULE!

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: savoy64] #1228667 05/08/12 12:03 AM 05/08/12 12:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 18,880 - R RSNOMO Moparts Torchbearer
RSNOMO Moparts Torchbearer R Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 18,880 -	'alot of trans am races were won by those antiquated torsion bars' Agreed... The system wasn't designed to get air, it was designed in Highland Park for a passenger car application...

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: RSNOMO] #1228668 05/08/12 12:18 AM 05/08/12 12:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323 A A57_RT Parts Problem
A57_RT Parts Problem A Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323	Frankie, Bone up a lil on some of the RMS stuff, the F body unit uses the 4 k frame bolts, and also bolts to the front frame rails which helps support the actual shock tower built in the unit, so in reality ive 8 mounting points. I understand that the coil over design is supported by the redesigned K member. In factory form, the "spring" action and resistance is divided between the frame rails and the torsion bar crossmember. With the RMS, now everything centers around the 4 bolts retaining the K member. 7196756-DSC02721[1].JPG (498 downloads)

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228669 05/08/12 12:25 AM 05/08/12 12:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA Kern Dog Striving for excellence
Kern Dog Striving for excellence Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA	Quote: Frankie, Bone up a lil on some of the RMS stuff, the F body unit uses the 4 k frame bolts, and also bolts to the front frame rails which helps support the actual shock tower built in the unit, so in reality ive 8 mounting points. I forgot about the transverse t bar cars. In my defense, MAYBE the frame rails are THICKER in the FMJ cars??? I'm not against a better mousetrap, and I have nothing personal against Mr Reilly. I just clearly agree with Mr E on this one.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Kern Dog] #1228670 05/08/12 12:52 AM 05/08/12 12:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323 A A57_RT Parts Problem
A57_RT Parts Problem A Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323	I think its semi easy to see the ones with them love them, I dont know of anyone who said, its junk off it goes. Mines driven alot and hard and in the f bodies case not only does it remove weight it brings it back to the centerline of the front wheels vs all the tvtb weight hanging out front. I think the only way one would not like the alterktion is that it dont feel like your driving an old mopsr, it feels like your in a much more modern car and with all things equal to the RMS quality and setup, its a hard combo to beat. At 3200 pounds I see big pig suvs with smaller rotors up front and out back vs some of what us use. I got a crapload of older car mags and reading looking back, so much changes and so much is BS and alot proves itself later in time. So I dont bother with any of the mags, most are just one persons opinion or a half/azzed attempt to surmise a whole build/project with limited space for pics and print... But its all good, no one makes people go out and buy them and not knowing you or Rick E, its your choice to like or dislike the units.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1228671 05/08/12 12:52 AM 05/08/12 12:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,280 Canada WO23Coronet master
WO23Coronet master Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 4,280 Canada	Quote: I have read many car articles in many magazines over my life racing cars, I have seen outright lies in print put in by the writer to increase sells. My question on most magazine scribes and their ability to be a authority is what is there background, a degree in writing or are they car racers,Engineers, fabricators or racers that got a job at a magazine writing technical articles Probally there educated in English, publishing and writing, even then I wonder about some of thier wording When I see questions like this I wonder who the writer is and what is his expertise to be a authority on the subject he is writing about You know the old adage, don't beleive anything you hear or read and only half of what you actually see When it comes to money, people lie and cheat So what exactly are you saying Cab? I'm not suggesting one way or the other, but in you statement are you referring to the original poster or E-Booger. If it's E-Booger the guy has an SAE in engineering (I don't think he has an engineering degree but he's been given the SAE status, not sure how that work's but it does go toward his credibility), and has never been anybody's advertising bit#h. Mr E seems to have his stuff together and his article explained why he doesn't like the coil over conversions for normal/heavy street use. He doesn't hate it or have a beef with Mr Reilly personally (he even stated that in his article), just a difference in opinion I guess that seems to be steeped in engineering and common sense. Has anyone that's commented actually have the education/knowledge to back up their claim? Such as an engineer? I'm not but what Mr E has said in his article makes sense, torsion bar cars weren't designed to bare the weight of the front of the car past the firewall, and the Alter K does just that. With proper reenforcing, it can work, which has already been stated. The cantilevered tie rod ends, well, that also makes sense as to why it's not ideal. Just because something "hasn't failed yet" doesn't mean it's right.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: WO23Coronet] #1228672 05/08/12 01:01 AM 05/08/12 01:01 AM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323 A A57_RT Parts Problem
A57_RT Parts Problem A Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323	torsion bar cars weren't designed to bare the weight of the front of the car past the firewall Hmmm, so lets make it worse and put the torsion bars in front on the front wheel centerline as like the f body cars. Rides good, not, poor poor design, the chrysler hats admit the only reason the f body cars got the junk front torsion bar system is mopar didnt want to give up the torsion bar reference since so much of the past was based on it. So in this case the front office went against what there own "experts" told them.......so about the ....torsion bar cars weren't designed to bare the weight of the front of the car past the firewall comment.... does not apply across the whole spectrum of the mopar world. So lets get smart here and mount the t bar system about 18 inches in front of the front wheel centerline, thats what 4-5 feet infront of the firewall.... Would you rather have this.... 7196798-DSC02792[1].JPG (534 downloads)

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228673 05/08/12 01:08 AM 05/08/12 01:08 AM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323 A A57_RT Parts Problem
A57_RT Parts Problem A Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323	Or this...I would pick the above if I were still in truck, tractor pulling, wouldnt have to add much weight to the front bumper, because ma mapar already put it there....hows that for design and the thought of the t bars dont belong in front of the firewall....I will second that one, but say they dont belong in front of the front tires. 7196806-DSC02721[1].JPG (510 downloads)

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228674 05/08/12 01:10 AM 05/08/12 01:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA Kern Dog Striving for excellence
Kern Dog Striving for excellence Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA	Hey A57..... Sorry dude! We A, B and E body guys sometimes forget that Mopar was still building cars after 1971! I have never had much love for the FMJ cars, but when I DO see them in nice form, I give the owner his due respect. I think that I may have seen yours... Silver, right? Pretty cool.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Kern Dog] #1228675 05/08/12 01:13 AM 05/08/12 01:13 AM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323 A A57_RT Parts Problem
A57_RT Parts Problem A Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323	Yep, one of them.... 7196815-DSC01651.JPG (426 downloads)

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228676 05/08/12 01:15 AM 05/08/12 01:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,431 USA S SSAAHemiFan top fuel
SSAAHemiFan top fuel S Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,431 USA	I thought Rick explained himself very well - The article was well written and addressed each concern point by point. Rick has a SAE cert and don't forget his accomplishments with the Green Brick. When you see what a OEM has to go thru to get things DOT approved, you will understand where he is coming from.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: SSAAHemiFan] #1228677 05/08/12 01:17 AM 05/08/12 01:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323 A A57_RT Parts Problem
A57_RT Parts Problem A Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323	The Dot must of been closed the day mopar slipped this one by.... 7196818-DSC02792[1].JPG (646 downloads)

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228678 05/08/12 01:18 AM 05/08/12 01:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA Kern Dog Striving for excellence
Kern Dog Striving for excellence Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA	THAT car is great. If they were smog exempt here I'd own one. Make mine a 77 Road Runner in Black with YOUR spoilers, wheels and tires. The legislature has a bill pending that may extend the smog exemption to 1980 and older cars. If that happens, you WILL hear about it.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Kern Dog] #1228679 05/08/12 01:24 AM 05/08/12 01:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323 A A57_RT Parts Problem
A57_RT Parts Problem A Joined: Jan 2012 Posts: 323	How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks. Yes Frank, F-s are a different but fun cars. 7196827-DSC02792[1].JPG (481 downloads)

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: WO23Coronet] #1228680 05/08/12 01:53 AM 05/08/12 01:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,596 So Cal autoxcuda Too Many Posts
autoxcuda Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,596 So Cal	Quote: ...SAE in engineering (I don't think he has an engineering degree but he's been given the SAE status, not sure how that work's but it does go toward his credibility),... If it's a full SAE Certificate, it's something like this: http://www.sae.org/training/seminars/certificate/ About 6 course at about $1400 avg cost per course if you are an SAE member. Otherwise, if you pay dues you are a member of SAE. They send you a certificate of membership. I'm a member, student member, student chapter president, Formula SAE Design captain, student chapter award of excellance...That and 50 cents will buy me a cup of coffee.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: slantzilla] #1228681 05/08/12 02:59 AM 05/08/12 02:59 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,596 So Cal autoxcuda Too Many Posts
autoxcuda Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,596 So Cal	Quote: If you really take a look at how a stock Mopar front suspension works you'd realize what a piece of crap it is. The upper A-arm moves in so many different directions there is no way it can not bump steer. Watch any stock suspension Mopar (especially an A body) come down from a wheelstand at the drag strip. The front wheel moves more directions than Shakira's azz. You think just because you don't wheelstand you've got nothing to worry about? That's just an example of what the geometry looks like going through it's travel. Yours will do the same thing hitting bumps on the highway at speed. Will it affect most people? No, but an AlterK-Tion addresses the real issues for those who want a suspension that works properly. I've bumpsteered my stock geometry setup. I got 1/16 toe out in Bump/Compression at 3" travel and 1/8 toe in in Jounce/Extension at 3" travel. Not going to see 3" of travel on the street or on a road course. Stock upper control arms have anti dive built into them. So the upper ball joint will move forward and back. So do Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles of the same era. Something simple drag race suspension don't worry about. Fall Fling 28 October 19, 2024 at Woodley Park, Van Nuys CA 300+ Mopars, 125+ swap, midway, Friday Malibu cruise,

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228682 05/08/12 03:10 AM 05/08/12 03:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA Kern Dog Striving for excellence
Kern Dog Striving for excellence Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA	Quote: How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks. That picture REALLY puts things in perspective. W O W ! To think that hundreds of thousands of those patrolled the streets as Police cruisers!

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228683 05/08/12 03:40 AM 05/08/12 03:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes... Pale_Roader Swears too much
Pale_Roader Swears too much Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...	Quote: The Dot must of been closed the day mopar slipped this one by.... Okay, i'll admit i've never really bothered to look at one ov these things out ov the car before, but WOW... if nothing else, that sucker looks HEAVY... And to Cab, your skepticism towards the written word (ad?) in car mags is well-earned. I've stopped buying mags years ago because ov it. They're more money than passion these days. You ALWAYS should ask who is saying something, and what they're credentials are, or what have they done. I think in that respect Rich Ehrenburg is about the best guy you could get to write these articles. I think if anyone, he's earned that distinction. I dont care if he skipped out ov school after grade two, i'd trust his input on matters like this before i trust my friends input after his 10 years ov mechanical engineering education.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228684 05/08/12 06:59 AM 05/08/12 06:59 AM
Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,338 the house on the left. C cogen80 master
cogen80 master C Joined: Nov 2007 Posts: 5,338 the house on the left.	Quote: How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks. Yes Frank, F-s are a different but fun cars. weren't those cars recalled early on too because of something was cracking? upper control arms or something? they used some kind of bracket for the fix

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