|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: 2fast4yourBrain]
#1228628
05/07/12 01:04 PM
05/07/12 01:04 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
|
Quote:
Can you post some quotes/excerpts of the article?
Is that Rich Ehrenberg or something like that? I know he's a big proponent of making the stock stuff works, but he may be still stuck in the 20th century.
Doubtful...
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: savoy64]
#1228631
05/07/12 01:53 PM
05/07/12 01:53 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
isnt the unit based on mustang II? even mustang II guys upgrade to granada brakes------they are selling a premium price unit telling you that you can, at extra expense, upgrade the brakes...
Not really. It just uses an aftermarket spindle similiar to Mustang II. That's it. It has Mopar upper ball joints K727. Does that make it a Mopar base unit?...No
The standard brakes on the AlterKion are the same size at standard brakes on a A/B/E-body. 
Are you sure the brakes are not Granada rotors?? If not, they are the same size.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: BergmanAutoCraft]
#1228632
05/07/12 01:55 PM
05/07/12 01:55 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
540challenger
master
|
master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
|
Quote:
I saw a failure once, and I have never seen anything with an alter k road racing.
What failed on the alterkation?????
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: 540challenger]
#1228633
05/07/12 02:05 PM
05/07/12 02:05 PM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,414
Stow ,Ohio
demon440
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,414
Stow ,Ohio
|
My Alterktion has granada rotors.
The guys on Muscle Block T.V. just put
one on their project Dart.
Ask them if it's junk.
Last edited by demon440; 05/07/12 02:07 PM.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: cudaboone]
#1228634
05/07/12 02:25 PM
05/07/12 02:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
Have been looking at the alterkation front end for some time for my cuda. Just don't have the $ now. This month's issue of mopar action made them seem like a piece of junk. How can this be if there has never been a failure that i have heard about and they are pounded at tracks all over week after week? U think this guy has it in for the manufacturer or knows about something the rest of us don't know? It just put some doubt in my pea brain.
Did the article specifically say they hated it? Those are pretty harsh words you are implying were said or meant by Mopar Action. What was really said? Sorry I haven't read the article.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Sixgun]
#1228637
05/07/12 03:01 PM
05/07/12 03:01 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
DJVCuda
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 11,179
Atco NJ
|
Quote:
The question that arose in MY 'pea brain' is have I made a mistake getting the adjustable tubular uppers with rod ends instead of bushings?
Mr.Reilly assured me they were plenty durable and beefy for extended street use.
(all the rest of my suspension is stock Mopar.
??????
Bill's name is on the product and I know he stands behind it - It's his company and his workmanship that have made the AlterK.
Magazines are full of opinions, and not necessarily based on cold hard facts.
I'd have to side with Bill on this - he is the one you'd be calling IF there ever was an issue not the mopar mag.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Sixgun]
#1228638
05/07/12 03:06 PM
05/07/12 03:06 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
540challenger
master
|
master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
|
Quote:
The question that arose in MY 'pea brain' is have I made a mistake getting the adjustable tubular uppers with rod ends instead of bushings?
Mr.Reilly assured me they were plenty durable and beefy for extended street use.
(all the rest of my suspension is stock Mopar.
??????
I have the alterkation on my challengeronly about 3000 ish miles on the car but it has the same upper arms you have and no problems here
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1228639
05/07/12 03:08 PM
05/07/12 03:08 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
Dodgeguy101
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 632
MD-USA
|
Quote:
Quote:
Have been looking at the alterkation front end for some time for my cuda. Just don't have the $ now. This month's issue of mopar action made them seem like a piece of junk. How can this be if there has never been a failure that i have heard about and they are pounded at tracks all over week after week? U think this guy has it in for the manufacturer or knows about something the rest of us don't know? It just put some doubt in my pea brain.
Did the article specifically say they hated it? Those are pretty harsh words you are implying were said or meant by Mopar Action. What was really said? Sorry I haven't read the article.
No, he didn't say it was junk. What I got out of was, it was not intended to used on a a daily driver. If the car was driven strickly at the track and or a few miles to car shows or whatever, it was fine.
He was just pointing out the flaws in some of the parts, regardless if they were used on this system or anything else.
From my own view point, I would welcome his opinion on anything. But again, it is his opinion, but I thought he expalained his position very well.
If you think he is wrong, by all means buy it. You will have to admit, we all hear advice and ignore it if we think it is wrong.
As far as you hearing there was a failure, I doubt anybody that did has your number or email address. 
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Charger727]
#1228642
05/07/12 03:40 PM
05/07/12 03:40 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,607
Western Washington
Sixgun
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,607
Western Washington
|
"not STOCK in the past." I very much like this double meaning. I think you may have coined a new and usable phrase. 
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: 540challenger]
#1228643
05/07/12 04:15 PM
05/07/12 04:15 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,085
NotRussia
2fast4yourBrain
Whack top Dodger
|
Whack top Dodger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,085
NotRussia
|
Quote:
Quote:
I saw a failure once, and I have never seen anything with an alter k road racing.
What failed on the alterkation?????
Ditto. What failed?
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: 2fast4yourBrain]
#1228644
05/07/12 05:38 PM
05/07/12 05:38 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,336
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,336
the house on the left.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I saw a failure once, and I have never seen anything with an alter k road racing.
What failed on the alterkation?????
Ditto. What failed?
from what i remember pete saying in the past, it was one poor weld on that spacer thats welded to the spindle where the rod end bolts. nothing catastrophic. the big bolt holding things together did its job.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1228647
05/07/12 06:17 PM
05/07/12 06:17 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,075
Berlin, N.J.
abodyjoe
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,075
Berlin, N.J.
|
Quote:
I'll add that I also agree that the means RMS used to eliminate bump steer seemed odd. Rick referred to it as a "cantilevered" design.
In smoothe surfaces, the design probably works fine. Imagine taking it on the neglected roads that we drive on every day. The dips, cracks, ruts and potholes would certainly take a toll.
my alter-k has been in my dart since july of 2006. its all crappy pot hole (should see my road. wish they would fix the damn thing soon) dip all over south jersey/pa roads driven. system has held up fine. all original heim joints and all. i grease everything every spring while i'm checking the car over for the summer season. if it wasn't a 80 mile round trip for work or gas was $1 a gallon again i would daily drive the car. no doubts in my mind that the system would hold up to daily abuse. only issue i have is that the paint i used on it when it was new is falling the hell off. that pisses me off.. 
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. www.MoparMisfits.com
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#1228651
05/07/12 09:38 PM
05/07/12 09:38 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,507
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
Rhinodart
Rhinotruck
|
Rhinotruck
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 43,507
Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
|
I have driven several cars with the Alter-K and the Mr. Norms design plus a few other of the designs, and all were based off the Alter-K except the Magnum Force. I have been over 150 MPH and through the twisties a few times at speed and my opinion is the Alter-K is the best. Yes there is some bump steer with some of the designs, but the Alter-K seems to have the least IMHO. The main difference between stock k-frames and Alter-K types are the removal of the torsion bars and addition of coil overs, less weight, better brakes, plus rack and pinion steering. I do agree that the unibody was not designed for the loads on the shock towers that the coil overs have and to be honest tying the frames and gusseting the shock towers should be done if the car is to be street driven alot. Son't forget the infinite adjustability of the new suspensions to your taste, while the stock suspensions are very limited. 
The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.
JB Rhinehart, Realist
A-Body's RULE!
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: savoy64]
#1228653
05/07/12 10:04 PM
05/07/12 10:04 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
I totally agree with Rick on all the points he made.
However...
Rick is all about making things "bomb proof" and I can see where the RMS may have it's shortcoming in an application that sees thousands of street miles in all conditions.
The factory Mopar design is very hard to improve upon when you think about it in that application.
If you're after weight reduction and something that free's up space for headers in a drag-type application then the RMS K is your ticket.
I thought he was very fair in his analogy.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: savoy64]
#1228654
05/07/12 10:25 PM
05/07/12 10:25 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
justinp61
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 11,684
W. Kentucky
|
I have looked at the Alterk kit for my street/strip Dart. It's a very nice set up for sure, but honestly I think my money is better spent elsewhere. As it's set up now it runs high 1.30 60' foot range. I run skinnies up front with Cal-Tracs and monos on the rear so it's set up more to go in a straight line. That being said it doesn't handle bad and is very predictable in the curves. The only front end upgrades I'm looking at now is a set of adjustable upper control arms with heim ends and adjustable strut rods. The car already has Strange disk on the front, Wilwoods on the rear and will stop on a dime. Nice front end set up, but not worth the $$$ to me. I like to see more return for the investment on the parts I buy. .
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: cudaboone]
#1228658
05/07/12 10:50 PM
05/07/12 10:50 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,075
Berlin, N.J.
abodyjoe
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 11,075
Berlin, N.J.
|
Quote:
Did not mean to start a firestorm. I just feel that if you knock something, you should have some facts to back up any and all of your statements. It's no different that any other scientific or professional statement. You have to have data to back them up good or bad. Expecially when it is someone's business/livelyhood.
Hated might have been a little harsh, but he did seem to zero in on alterkation. If i do get one, it looks like a will have to come up with a way to beef up the frame. It looks enticing when you think of the room you will gain.
its a lot more enticing if you have ever driven a car with one. i'm working on selling a few thing and saving so i can buy a second one to install in jamies dart.
It's better to keep your mouth shut and give the impression that you're stupid than to open it and remove all doubt. www.MoparMisfits.com
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1228659
05/07/12 10:53 PM
05/07/12 10:53 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
|
If you really take a look at how a stock Mopar front suspension works you'd realize what a piece of crap it is. The upper A-arm moves in so many different directions there is no way it can not bump steer. Watch any stock suspension Mopar (especially an A body) come down from a wheelstand at the drag strip. The front wheel moves more directions than Shakira's azz.
You think just because you don't wheelstand you've got nothing to worry about? That's just an example of what the geometry looks like going through it's travel. Yours will do the same thing hitting bumps on the highway at speed.
Will it affect most people? No, but an AlterK-Tion addresses the real issues for those who want a suspension that works properly.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: RodStRace]
#1228662
05/08/12 12:27 AM
05/08/12 12:27 AM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Slant, while I don't have the heavy background to give either design the nod, I will say that your example is a simplification. By that measure, a straight axle is great! 
..if you're into Conestoga's.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#1228665
05/08/12 12:56 AM
05/08/12 12:56 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
|
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
No need to beef up the shock towers with the AlterK. The upper shock/spring bracket is part of the AlterK. You don't use the original shock tower, as I understand it.
I understand that the coil over design is supported by the redesigned K member. In factory form, the "spring" action and resistance is divided between the frame rails and the torsion bar crossmember. With the RMS, now everything centers around the 4 bolts retaining the K member.
Crappy in stock form? Sure, you are entitled to your opinion, but people that I respect disagree with you. Name any suspension from the other American automakers that had a better design? I'll agree that the idler arm is a weak point. It flexes more than it should, but the traditional torsion bar design allowed for the forces (AND weight) of the suspension to be spread out. As much as it is a pisser for header clearance, REAR steer is better for weight balance since the weight of the components are closer to the center of the car. Look at any GM suspension of the 60s or 70s. BIG lower A arms, fatter sway bars with longer levers, front steer with longer steering columns.... ALL of that conspires to move weight away from center. Fords? You want to hear about header interference? How about shock towers the size of the world trade center TWIN towers! That design puts a coil spring ABOVE the upper control arm !!??? GREAT ! lets put the weight up HIGHER in the car!
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228669
05/08/12 01:25 AM
05/08/12 01:25 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
|
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
Frankie,
Bone up a lil on some of the RMS stuff, the F body unit uses the 4 k frame bolts, and also bolts to the front frame rails which helps support the actual shock tower built in the unit, so in reality ive 8 mounting points.
I forgot about the transverse t bar cars. In my defense, MAYBE the frame rails are THICKER in the FMJ cars???
I'm not against a better mousetrap, and I have nothing personal against Mr Reilly. I just clearly agree with Mr E on this one.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1228671
05/08/12 01:52 AM
05/08/12 01:52 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
|
Quote:
I have read many car articles in many magazines over my life racing cars, I have seen outright lies in print put in by the writer to increase sells. My question on most magazine scribes and their ability to be a authority is what is there background, a degree in writing or are they car racers,Engineers, fabricators or racers that got a job at a magazine writing technical articles Probally there educated in English, publishing and writing, even then I wonder about some of thier wording  When I see questions like this I wonder who the writer is and what is his expertise to be a authority on the subject he is writing about You know the old adage, don't beleive anything you hear or read and only half of what you actually see When it comes to money, people lie and cheat  
So what exactly are you saying Cab? I'm not suggesting one way or the other, but in you statement are you referring to the original poster or E-Booger. If it's E-Booger the guy has an SAE in engineering (I don't think he has an engineering degree but he's been given the SAE status, not sure how that work's but it does go toward his credibility), and has never been anybody's advertising bit#h.
Mr E seems to have his stuff together and his article explained why he doesn't like the coil over conversions for normal/heavy street use. He doesn't hate it or have a beef with Mr Reilly personally (he even stated that in his article), just a difference in opinion I guess that seems to be steeped in engineering and common sense. Has anyone that's commented actually have the education/knowledge to back up their claim? Such as an engineer? I'm not but what Mr E has said in his article makes sense, torsion bar cars weren't designed to bare the weight of the front of the car past the firewall, and the Alter K does just that. With proper reenforcing, it can work, which has already been stated. The cantilevered tie rod ends, well, that also makes sense as to why it's not ideal. Just because something "hasn't failed yet" doesn't mean it's right.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228674
05/08/12 02:10 AM
05/08/12 02:10 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
|
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Hey A57..... Sorry dude! We A, B and E body guys sometimes forget that Mopar was still building cars after 1971! I have never had much love for the FMJ cars, but when I DO see them in nice form, I give the owner his due respect. I think that I may have seen yours... Silver, right? Pretty cool. 
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1228675
05/08/12 02:13 AM
05/08/12 02:13 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
A57_RT
Parts Problem
|
Parts Problem
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
|
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1228680
05/08/12 02:53 AM
05/08/12 02:53 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
...SAE in engineering (I don't think he has an engineering degree but he's been given the SAE status, not sure how that work's but it does go toward his credibility),...
If it's a full SAE Certificate, it's something like this: http://www.sae.org/training/seminars/certificate/
About 6 course at about $1400 avg cost per course if you are an SAE member.
Otherwise, if you pay dues you are a member of SAE. They send you a certificate of membership. I'm a member, student member, student chapter president, Formula SAE Design captain, student chapter award of excellance...That and 50 cents will buy me a cup of coffee.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: slantzilla]
#1228681
05/08/12 03:59 AM
05/08/12 03:59 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
If you really take a look at how a stock Mopar front suspension works you'd realize what a piece of crap it is. The upper A-arm moves in so many different directions there is no way it can not bump steer. Watch any stock suspension Mopar (especially an A body) come down from a wheelstand at the drag strip. The front wheel moves more directions than Shakira's azz.
You think just because you don't wheelstand you've got nothing to worry about? That's just an example of what the geometry looks like going through it's travel. Yours will do the same thing hitting bumps on the highway at speed.
Will it affect most people? No, but an AlterK-Tion addresses the real issues for those who want a suspension that works properly.
I've bumpsteered my stock geometry setup. I got 1/16 toe out in Bump/Compression at 3" travel and 1/8 toe in in Jounce/Extension at 3" travel. Not going to see 3" of travel on the street or on a road course.
Stock upper control arms have anti dive built into them. So the upper ball joint will move forward and back. So do Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles of the same era. Something simple drag race suspension don't worry about.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228682
05/08/12 04:10 AM
05/08/12 04:10 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
|
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks.
That picture REALLY puts things in perspective. W O W ! To think that hundreds of thousands of those patrolled the streets as Police cruisers!
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228683
05/08/12 04:40 AM
05/08/12 04:40 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
|
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
The Dot must of been closed the day mopar slipped this one by....
Okay, i'll admit i've never really bothered to look at one ov these things out ov the car before, but WOW... if nothing else, that sucker looks HEAVY...
And to Cab, your skepticism towards the written word (ad?) in car mags is well-earned. I've stopped buying mags years ago because ov it. They're more money than passion these days. You ALWAYS should ask who is saying something, and what they're credentials are, or what have they done. I think in that respect Rich Ehrenburg is about the best guy you could get to write these articles. I think if anyone, he's earned that distinction. I dont care if he skipped out ov school after grade two, i'd trust his input on matters like this before i trust my friends input after his 10 years ov mechanical engineering education.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228684
05/08/12 07:59 AM
05/08/12 07:59 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,336
the house on the left.
cogen80
master
|
master
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,336
the house on the left.
|
Quote:
How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks.
Yes Frank, F-s are a different but fun cars.
weren't those cars recalled early on too because of something was cracking? upper control arms or something? they used some kind of bracket for the fix
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228685
05/08/12 10:58 AM
05/08/12 10:58 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
|
Quote:
Yep, one of them....
THAT is a nice F body. Dimes to Doghnuts though the front end of those cars, firewall forward, are probably heavier (ie heavier frame stube, etc) than a comparable A body? Plus, as already stated, they did have some pretty significant issues in the front end with cracking. Also those were some pretty dark years for anything performance, or reliability from Mopar (they also have the much loved rubber isolated rear suspension), so I'm hesitant to use anything that Mopar did in those years as proof.
I'm not hating on the Alter K, and I'm not saying it can't be made to handle,it's definitely got it's place. I just think that guys beef on the torsion bar stuff unnecessarily and want change just for change sake.
The Green Brick is testament that torsion bars do work, that beast licked the best of the best time and time again with an "ancient" torsion bar suspension
Last edited by WO23Coronet; 05/08/12 02:10 PM.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Rhinodart]
#1228687
05/08/12 02:27 PM
05/08/12 02:27 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
I have driven several cars with the Alter-K and the Mr. Norms design plus a few other of the designs, and all were based off the Alter-K except the Magnum Force. I have been over 150 MPH and through the twisties a few times at speed and my opinion is the Alter-K is the best. Yes there is some bump steer with some of the designs, but the Alter-K seems to have the least IMHO. The main difference between stock k-frames and Alter-K types are the removal of the torsion bars and addition of coil overs, less weight, better brakes, plus rack and pinion steering. I do agree that the unibody was not designed for the loads on the shock towers that the coil overs have and to be honest tying the frames and gusseting the shock towers should be done if the car is to be street driven alot. Son't forget the infinite adjustability of the new suspensions to your taste, while the stock suspensions are very limited.
I thought the alterKtion Kframe/crossmember has integral shock towers on it, much like the F/M/J's do, and don't really load the OEM shock tower.....
it's biggest advantage is the R&P steering (which should save weight and improve feedback over an OEM power steering system), and ability to quickly and easily adjust spring rates with the coil overs, as well as an assortment of affordable brake options, using a mustang II type spindle.
While Rick is a pretty bright guy, I take some of what he says with a grain of salt. I'd call some of the "testing" methods he's shared here dubious at best...
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: WO23Coronet]
#1228688
05/08/12 02:33 PM
05/08/12 02:33 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
So what exactly are you saying Cab? I'm not suggesting one way or the other, but in you statement are you referring to the original poster or E-Booger. If it's E-Booger the guy has an SAE in engineering (I don't think he has an engineering degree but he's been given the SAE status, not sure how that work's but it does go toward his credibility), and has never been anybody's advertising bit#h.
SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) is a trade group. pay your dues, and you're a member. if Flo from the Progressive commercials joined and paid her dues she could
claim she's an SAE member.
Also, the claim that all the load of the front suspension isn't supported forward of the firewall is wrong. Draw a free body diagram of the lower control arm, looking at it from the front of the car. the lower control arm mount point (LCA bushings) react all the vertical and side load on the tire. this gets transferred to the car in the K frame mounts....ahead of the firewall. In a traditional coil spring suspension, the moment created from the tire rotating about the LCA mount point is reacted vertically on the LCA at the spring mount. with the torsion bar setup, the moment is generated about the pivot point, and reacted at the torsion bar mount. Again, draw a free body diagram of the alterKtion's front cradle. Since the alterKtion is a self contained suspension, the forces on the coil over mounts will be shared by all of the alterKtion's mount locations. but a lot of that "added load" of the spring reaction will be offset by a different load path, mainly different loading at the LCA mount. in the torsion bar example, say you have a 100lb upward force, 18" from LCA to center of tire. the reaction at the LCA mount is a corresponding 100lb downward force, and a 150 ft-lb torque reacted at the t-bar mount (sum of forces=0, sum of moments=0). in a coil over conversion, with say the coil over reaction point 12" from the pivot point, you have a 100lb upward force at the tire, you then have a 150 lb downward reaction at the coil over mount to make the sum of moments = 0. to make the sum of forces=0, that means you end up having a 50lb UPWARD force on the LCA pivot point. so, the actual Y direction load seen by the k-frame mount bolts are the same. load path/locations of reactions are different, so that will change load distribution to the 4 mount bolts somewhat, but not a monumental amount.
Last edited by patrick; 05/08/12 03:08 PM.
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: patrick]
#1228689
05/08/12 03:14 PM
05/08/12 03:14 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
|
Quote:
When it comes to "out of the box" suspension designs that handle well..... Mopar doesn't top the list..... Yes you can make it better with aftermarket stuff, but the overall design is very outdated
Quote:
If you really take a look at how a stock Mopar front suspension works you'd realize what a piece of crap it is.
While its caster adjustments are a limiting factor, it overall is a very decent design, even by standards of today. In context of the era, it was significantly better than the Ford and GM offerings. So what exactly sucks about the mopar design, toe changes? You can fix those you know. Anti-dive, again that can be changed. fixed strut rods, agian changes are possible. The mopar design has a pretty decent camber curve, is very solid and works pretty decent.
BTW, you do know that t-bar suspension a very popular in the modern truck and SUV market. Wanna guess why? They are tough, effective, and efficient.
Quote:
Rick is all about making things "bomb proof" and I can see where the RMS may have its shortcoming in an application that sees thousands of street miles in all conditions.
True, and the factory has, by comparison to a one guy shop, almost limitless resources to prove out the longevity of a product. Combine that with hundreds of thousands of cars sold that have travelled millions of miles, and the robustness has been proven. Again, a small shop has no way to compete against that type of record. Conversely, I think we have all seen our share of broken stock parts.
Quote:
Nice front end set up, but not worth the $$$ to me. I like to see more return for the investment on the parts I buy.
Agreed. I’d love to have an Alterkation too, but the gains are not worth the $$ spent in my opinion either. If you want weight loss, the Alterkation will cost you around $56 a pound if the fully optioned cost is $4500 and the weight lost is 80#. By comparison, losing 50# with a fiberglass hood only costs me $7 a pound at a $400 purchase price. Similarly, the geometrics corrections provided by an aftermarket suspension can usually be duplicated with some effort on the stock layout for a fraction of the cost of an entire front end. To address its superior handling, this is the result of a better trained designer specifying spring and shock rates that are better matched to the car’s set up than a layman buying whatever is on sale. You buy a system, it had better be speced out to perform. No different than if you buy an engine from a reputable builder.
Quote:
With the RMS, now everything centers around the 4 bolts retaining the K member.
This is no different than stock. With the OEM K frame, all vertical loading is supported by those same four bolts and through the same frame rails. The rear anchor and t-bars only support the twisting motion of the bar, not the vertical displacement.
Quote:
As much as it is a pisser for header clearance, REAR steer is better for weight balance since the weight of the components are closer to the center of the car.
The rear steer weight balance is there, but is marginal. Polar moment of inertia is what this impacts. The change from 45 pounds of rear steer to 20 pounds of front steer is a change in polar moment of fractions compared to the reduction of overall weight benefit.
Quote:
Would you rather have this....
Certainly less than ideal, but it is still a popular swap with the street rod crowd because of its self contained nature. Maybe if more of them knew about the tubular conversions, they would be using them instead, although I have a suspicion that this need has driven some other, less well known with the mopar crowd conversions to the market place.
FWIW, in my opinion, the advantages of all the tubular after market suspensions are 1) the loss of weight 2) the ability to rapidly change spring rates and ride height 3) component clearance 4)geometric improvements. SO, in response 1) The weight loss thing is a tangible that benefits every aspect of driving, but like I said further above, there are more economical ways of achieving it. 2)Since I'd venture a guess to say most classic mopar users rarely use their car in venues where they are concerned about and NEED to make a 50 to 100# spring rate change in 15 minutes, then advantage 2 is really no advantage to the average driver. 3) Components have been made for decades to fit within the confines of the stock set up so the added clearance is merely a nicety, not a requirement to fit components in the engine bay. 4) clean sheet design has allowed tube frame designers to put better geometric angles in thereto support their design, but the stock layout needs only minor tweaking to make things better. It already has a good camber curve, the caster can be tweaked, and the anti-dive adjusted.These changes can be accomplished with bolt on kits costing many thousands less than a full blown coil over conversion kit.
Are the tubular set up nice, heck yeah. If had had the money to spend, I’d probably install one in my car and not look back. Are they the end all be all because of their new design, not necessarily. Will they make your car the center of attention at the drive in, probably. Can they increase performance, potentially. Will they fail on the highway, unlikely and probably not at a rate any higher than the stock stuff for how most of these cars are used now days.
Now, one thing I will slam the torsion bar suspension on is the lack of available rates and the cost of bars. However, I'd imagine higher and higher rate bars are a very limited market and you could probably count the people willing to buy huge rates on both hands. To go hand in hand with that, th elimited market means they would only be even more expensive.
You make your choice, pay your money, and enjoy the benefits/drawbacks regardless of system. Simple as that.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1228690
05/08/12 03:53 PM
05/08/12 03:53 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,712
Sacramento, Ca
Darius
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,712
Sacramento, Ca
|
I read this article and my initial response was....Oh No!
I have installed an AlterKtion in my 70 GTX build.
Link to pics...http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/showthread.php?t=1121
While I certainly can NOT comment on any durability or handling issues Rick mentioned in the article, I can agree with him on ONE point and that is where the thru-bolts go at the shock tower on the AlterKtion to the frame rails. It is VERY easy to "crush" the frame rail by over tightening.
I respected his opinion but wondered also about the mention of failures with out proof.I also respected the fact that he pretty much backed up his "opinion" with his justification for each opinion.
I am looking forward to driving this car and intend to drive the snot out of it as often as I can. I am not a racer, just wanted the look of the classic beauty with as close to modern convenience as I could (fairly ) reasonably accomplish.
Bottom line is this...If the AlterKtion was that bad, RMS would not still be selling them and our Beloved Moparters would have COMPLETELY discredited Bill Reiley a long time ago!
Driving modern convenience in classic beauty
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: cudaboone]
#1228692
05/08/12 04:33 PM
05/08/12 04:33 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,273
Greenville, South Carolina
BBLM23
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,273
Greenville, South Carolina
|
I have had mine since 2003. Wilwood brakes:
Walter
1969 Dart Swinger w/ARC Pump Gas 493 B1/BS 10.18 at 130mph
Racing Pro in street trim.
1981 Aries ARC 548 B1 8.88 at 147mph (footbraking)
1996 Ram 2500 V10 16.52 at 80mph
1981 Reliant 400
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: ProStDodge]
#1228694
05/08/12 06:23 PM
05/08/12 06:23 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,712
Sacramento, Ca
Darius
master
|
master
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,712
Sacramento, Ca
|
I did not get any spacers, I will contact Bill and get some since I am at the point of dis-assembly for final body and paint I can make that modification.
Driving modern convenience in classic beauty
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: cudaboone]
#1228696
05/08/12 10:56 PM
05/08/12 10:56 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
NO. It was not hated, I did NOT say that. Quite the contrary, I mentioned that I think it is a great drag race front end. This was not an "article", just a reply to a reader's question.
OK, to put this to rest, here's exactly what I (and the reader) wrote: (for now, you'll have to get the mag to see the diagrams and captions, I'll try to get them posted soon).
************************************************
SUBSTITUTE SUSPENSION
I have found a couple consecutive negative remarks about RMS products published in recent issues of Mopar Action and I am seeking to understand why. This came as a surprise to me because I can find no negative data on any RMS product no matter where I look. Many builds, including my own, that are pursuing handling related performance upgrades often include RMS.
A much smaller percentage use XV (due to cost and mods) and even less Magnum Force. Bill at RMS really seems to have his heart dedicated to building quality products capable of improving street and road race performance with more than 10 years of product application to support it. If you have experience with RMS quality problems, or
data to support the “questionable” status, please share it with us enthusiasts seeking to get our Mopars onto the tracks. This way we can make the necessary improvements, mods etc. to appropriately benefit from these kinds of upgrades. There should
not be fear, uncertainty and doubt between fellow enthusiasts. I understand how the RMS system distributes cornering forces on our car’s infrastructure differently from the T‑bar but is there data of failures resulting from this? I can’t find a single case of failure of any kind. If you know of any please share and help us understand what is “questionable” about these products. Maybe together we can make the perfect solution.
My ’71 Challenger is using XV in the rear and RMS in front with all XV bracing products including rad support, inner fender bracing and connectors.
Thank you for your help and expertise.
—Daniel Niclas, San Jose, CA
Dan—
On a drag car, the RMS AlterKtion stuff is great—takes out lots of weight, makes more exhaust room. But there’s a laundry list of potential problems with using this on the street and/or road course. In no particular order...
> Heim joints—anybody’s heim joints— just do not last on the street. Even with added boots, they still don’t come anywhere close to OEM tie rod end durability. And, as an artifact of their construction, they are much more prone to total failure than an OEM tie rod end.
> The cantilevered outer tie rod end, spaced up with a stack of shims and spacers (for bumpsteer correction, no doubt out of necessity, because the rack could not be installed correctly due to interference, and a “generic” steering arm is used), is a scary potential catastrophic failure point. The loads on that bolt, should you be in a hard corner and hit a pothole, are astronomical. Some photos I have seen show the spacer tube welded to the steering arm, which may offer partial mitigation.
> The suspension (spring) loads are now taken by the front rails. They were, in the OEM Chrysler design, primarily, imparted to the torsion bar crossmember. On a drag car, where you’ll have a roll cage tube passing thru the firewall and tied into the top of what was the shock tower, the problem is pretty well mitigated. But on a street car, where you seldom see that, you’ll be inducing lots more chassis flex. Just hook up a small video camera and watch how the steering shaft telescopes over bumps. The Chrysler OEM system had a lightweight front structure with springs (T-bars) mounted low and rearward, damn near “Formula One” technology. Why give that up?
> The “K”-member is no longer a “K”, drastically reducing its ability to prevent the front rails from “parallelograming”. This would significantly reduce crashworthiness (especially in an offset frontal crash) as well as reducing overall chassis rigidity.
> I believe that the spindle diameter is smaller than stock. In 1973, Chrysler increased the spindle diameter as weight, tire size, wheel width, etc., were all increasing.
> The frame thru-bolts will crush the frame as the bolts are tightened. There should be tubes welded into the frame, EG: stock transmission crossmember, etc.
> Every pix I have seen shows brake hubs that have no way to pilot the wheel. ESPECIALLY road racing, hub-centricity is paramount.
> There’s near-zero compliance—nothing to replace the OEM tension-strut bushing. Instantaneous impact loads are sky-high, exacerbating the above negatives. And the effective footprint of the LCA, which, in the OEM design, included that tension strut, is greatly reduced (nearly 50%) in the RMS
design, further reducing its ability to safely
handle impacts.
> The steering column’s pot coupling is eliminated. The pot coupling is what compensates for chassis flex; deleting it means that one of two things will occur over time/ abuse: Either the nylon shear pin on ’67-up non-E-bodies will break, or the upper column bearing will fail (possible on any Mopar).
> You’ll note that there is not one weld in the factory suspension components. By design. That’s not to necessarily say that welds are always bad, but, if they can be avoided, you’ve eliminated one area where, unless each weld is X-rayed, you just don’t know what to expect over the long term.
Mr. Reilly has always thought I’ve had it in for him. That’s simply not true, I think he has designed a very good drag-race suspension conversion. It’s just when you take a drag race front end, sell it for street use, with nothing even close to factory durability and stress testing, that I worry. Lack of reported or known failures isn’t proof of anything: Space shuttles made many flights “before,” the Silver Bridge carried tens of millions of cars safely, then one day it simply vanished into the Ohio River, killing hundreds, to cite just two well-known examples. When a fleet of test cars have spent 250,000 miles each being hammered at a PG, then get back to me. This applies to the competitor’s products as well. If I didn’t point these things out, I’d be complacent. Reilly, in fact, does point this out, go read the disclaimer that is in the RMS documentation:
“....By purchasing this product, the buyer/end user assumes all risks associated with its use and agrees to having the proper skills for it’s [sic] installation. Reilly MotorSports Inc. and its suppliers will not be held responsible, liable or accountable for any injury, damage, loss, penalties, or fines that occur from using this product in any manner.”
For my dime, upgrades to the basic T-bar system re the way to go. Firm Feel, XV’s level one, and even Hotchkis have parts and packages that get the job done, although Hotchkis’ swapping (giving up) brake anti-dive* for more camber gain doesn’t thrill me either. If you’re building a straight-line-only drag car, your opinion may vary.
Guys often confuse “race” parts with “durability.” Often the opposite is true. EG: Aluminum con rods and rocker arms, “race” axle shafts and gears, tiny radiators and fans, super high-lift cams, and many more. A lot of guys, of course, do get by with race parts on the street. How? Simple: The car sees 10 cruise-ins or 300 miles a year, smooth roads, 40 MPH, etc.
If I don’t take care to see that there’s some kind of disclaimer in articles featuring cars with these suspension conversions, we could be seen (legally) as endorsing them—which we are not.
To boil this down: Again, I’m sure the RMS setup has good geometry (even has anti-dive)and drives just fine. On a drag car, the extra header and oil pan real estate, and reduced weight, would be the hot ticket. It is the specter of sudden, catastrophic failure in “real street” use that worries me.
*— For more on this, see p. 67.
************************
End paste job...
I'll work on the diagrams...
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 1st dwg and caption
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1228697
05/08/12 11:01 PM
05/08/12 11:01 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
 The RMS narrow lower control arm “stance” greatly increases stresses. If you hit a chuckhole, the weld where the front of the arm meets the pivot tries to rip apart; this artifact is multiplied by the fact that there’s near-zero compliance built into this design. For a quick demonstration of the narrow vs. wide stability and strength, try standing with your feet close together vs. spread apart. OEM strut (r.)absorbs all road shocks in pure tension, an inherently reliable design. -Rick E.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1228700
05/08/12 11:06 PM
05/08/12 11:06 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
 The cantilevered tie rod end thru-bolt is but one of the questionable engineering practices found on the RMS “AlterKtion” conversion suspension. This would probably be fine for a drag car, but street durability and safety remains a big question mark. ****************** That's all, folks. Rick E.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1228705
05/08/12 11:37 PM
05/08/12 11:37 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
Quote:
:
With the RMS, now everything centers around the 4 bolts retaining the K member.
***********
This is no different than stock. With the OEM K frame, all vertical loading is supported by those same four bolts and through the same frame rails. The rear anchor and t-bars only support the twisting motion of the bar, not the vertical displacement.
Actually, that's not quite correct if you analyze it. With a coil spring setup, the jounce loads are taken by the upper spring /shock mount. With T-bars, the majority is taken by the T-bar X-member. This is why the T-bar setup can have a very light forestructure. (Not to mention the super low C/G, reduced unsprung mass, etc.)
Rick
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Rhinodart]
#1228708
05/09/12 12:09 AM
05/09/12 12:09 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 186
Middleton, ID
curleysracecars
member
|
member
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 186
Middleton, ID
|
Rick,
Thanks for posting what the magazine contains...all this time and nobody could tell us what was said in the magazine. Rick hits all points on the head, and expresses an honest and true opinion of the product in question. As others have stated, everyone will have their own opinion. At the same time, he is making it clear that this product is not the "holy grail" as alot of people think it is.
Kyle Curley
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1228711
05/09/12 03:07 AM
05/09/12 03:07 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
Failures? I have heard of the lower control arm bolt (3/4)shearing off just backing up. My friend received gusset plates to weld on as a fix. I agree there is too much stress in that area. Way too much money for what you get. In the race car we put a rack in the k-frame turned the spindles around bent the arms till the bump was right and run it for years and no problems. He just wants to show off his coil overs on the street car, his money.
Glass houses...
Quote:
In the race car we put a rack in the k-frame turned the spindles around bent the arms till the bump was right and run it for years and no problems.
What was your akermann when you flipped the spindles??
Did you heat the steering arms to bend them??
Probably ok for a drag car since you don't turn them or put much side load on them.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1228712
05/09/12 12:45 PM
05/09/12 12:45 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Fixing something that ain't broke
A good way to go broke
Unless you sell the fix
In the race to come up with even more stuff to sell Mopar guys and make $$ just Think what we will see in the future!
We need more guys like AB & E ,repo parts better than the originals etc --Parts to make them back like they were--want a new car?--BUY a new car --Geeez!
To me , everyone aims to MAXIMIZE what they do no matter what it is--fishing? you need 10K worth of Graphite from Bass Pro, Deer hunting, same deal except $50K with truck, 4 wheeler, titanium deer stand etc, Golf? same deal--New RC cars? Same cost as real cars, etc etc
So ..on paper you have the best steering and geometry in the universe on your wizzed up E body but question is--Can ya drive??
Tiger Woods can beat most golfers with a claw hammer etc
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: patrick]
#1228718
05/09/12 03:12 PM
05/09/12 03:12 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
Just curious, but if torsion bar systems are so great, how come they aren't used anymore?
they are, just on 4wd IFS trucks.....
Expensive... Parts and labor to assemble.
The double A-arm with coil spring center isn't really used much any more either. Although it's used it most forms of racing with outboard spring/shocks.
Torsion bars were used on Porsche 911's until like the 90's.
Torsion bars are used in Sprint car racing currently.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228720
05/09/12 03:37 PM
05/09/12 03:37 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
The first and last paragraph say it the best concerning our torsion bar system.
Yes this is from a 76 mag road test but ive confirmed the last paragraph from some contacts within chrysler.....
Again the F body was a front office deal, and it may seem since 1957 it had its shortcomings....you be the judge.
I don't think anyone is defending the Aspen/Volare transverse torsion bar setup, or thinks it works anywhere near as well as the longitudinal bar setup.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
#1228721
05/09/12 03:45 PM
05/09/12 03:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
A57_RT
Parts Problem
|
Parts Problem
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
|
But the first paragraph states the org t bar setup from 1957 that was used in the late 60-s early 70-s was 1957 Tech??? I wont  any more on this, I just wonder if the supporters of the T bar system does not think tech hasnt came a long way since 57. Sorta like the new style of trucks, maybe in the 90-s, trucks that had used the same front end since the early 70-s...excuse me if im a bit off on the truck dates. It seems in 76, some were not impressed with the org design as well...Sounds like some would of rather seen coils as the new setup.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228723
05/09/12 04:02 PM
05/09/12 04:02 PM
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
OK, a big block mopar engine is 1958 tech, and the SBM is an update of 1956 tech. We're all living in the past.
I think we can all agree that the disadvantages of the Mopar longitudinal torsion bar setup include (1) less room for a high performance exhaust, (2) not enough adjustability in factory stock form to take full advantage of modern tire technology, and (3) not easy to adapt rack and pinion steering. Don't think the basic geometry can be faulted, though. And there are some advantages to torsion bars vs. coils or whatever, and modern upgrades can make it all work very well.
Which doesn't have too much to do with whether or not the Alterkation setup is really suited for or safe for a true street-driven vehicle - a matter which I don't pretend to be competent to judge. Interesting discussion, though.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
#1228724
05/09/12 04:17 PM
05/09/12 04:17 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
|
Quote:
OK, a big block mopar engine is 1958 tech, and the SBM is an update of 1956 tech. We're all living in the past.
I think we can all agree that the disadvantages of the Mopar longitudinal torsion bar setup include (1) less room for a high performance exhaust, (2) not enough adjustability in factory stock form to take full advantage of modern tire technology, and (3) not easy to adapt rack and pinion steering. Don't think the basic geometry can be faulted, though. And there are some advantages to torsion bars vs. coils or whatever, and modern upgrades can make it all work very well.
Which doesn't have too much to do with whether or not the Alterkation setup is really suited for or safe for a true street-driven vehicle - a matter which I don't pretend to be competent to judge. Interesting discussion, though.
Good post. I have nothing to say about the Alterkation stuff either except to say that I doubt most purchasers need it for their intended useage.
....just because a design is old doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work well.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: RSNOMO]
#1228729
05/09/12 08:11 PM
05/09/12 08:11 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
|
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
|
And tires are still round but there is no comparison between 1970 tires and 2012 tires. Tires today are superior in everyway, just like todays suspensions are superior in every way. Back in the day, you either had a 1/4 mile suspension or a handling suspension.. not both on the same car (for the most part.. few exceptions naturally). Today we have both, on the same car. I for one am glad WE have a much larger choise for suspensions.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228731
05/09/12 08:28 PM
05/09/12 08:28 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
slantzilla
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,158
Park Forest, IL
|
Torsion bars aren't really the issue with a Mopar front end. Placement of the mounts for the upper A-arm is.
"Everybody funny, now you funny too."
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DRJDVM]
#1228732
05/09/12 08:34 PM
05/09/12 08:34 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
|
Quote:
Won alot and dominated the Trans Am circuit.......yes
But correct me if I'm wrong... Those weren't totally stock..... And THAT WAS 40+ YEARS AGO!!!!!!
And then people pull out magazine articles from the 70's to discuss suspension design? You have got to be kidding me.....
Things change with time......design and technology change.....if you don't like the RMS kit then fine..... But to tout suspensions that dominated 40 years ago is ridiculous
The RMS kit has its flaws and isn't for everyone.... And that's okay.... But stop living in the past
Guys.... It's okay to not live in the 70's still..... It's okay to not keep your mopar 100% stock original.....
Let it go...... Last I checked it's 2012..... Not 1970
If you want to drive a car that feels like and handles like the "top of the line in 1970" then that's your choice.... Some of us choose to evolve alittle and have open minds for newer stuff
Show me some failures...... And give me a good reason why no one but big trucks still use torsion bars
Stop living in the past?? You do KNOW that this site is dedicated to cars from the past right? 
Listen, I don't much care what anyone does with their cars and YES I do want to drive a car that "feels and handles like top of the line 1970" (you say that like it's a bad thing!  )
Honestly I have nothing bad to say about Alterkation or any of the other aftermarket suspension systems out there, HOWEVER to imply that the stock Mopar torsion bar setup was a bad design or inadequate to the task of driving (even spirited driving) on todays streets is just dead wrong.
Yes it's an old design just like the cars they were installed in, the engines that powered them, etc. etc.
Though I don't care if people want to make thier car into a mix of old and new, you are right that I just don't understand the desire. If I wanted to drive a new car, I'd buy one. ....or better yet I'd go out into the garage and hop in the Mercedes which does pretty much everything better than ANY 1970 car in 1000X the comfort. I still like my old Superbee better though....weird, huh?
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228733
05/09/12 08:41 PM
05/09/12 08:41 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
|
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
|
A57, Me relax? I wasn't replying to you.. and I don't really care what you posted. As I said, I'm glad theres a lot more options for suspensions nowadays.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: A57_RT ]
#1228734
05/09/12 10:44 PM
05/09/12 10:44 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 982
W. Sacto CA. USA
phantomx
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 982
W. Sacto CA. USA
|
That big long bolt with the spacer on the tie rod end would scare me away. It would be much better if it were double sheer instead of single. I'm no engineer though, just a guy who understands how things work and have my own opinions and feelings about things Travis..
70 GTX project, orig 440-4, 4 spd, track pack, FC7, stripper/street racer special.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: 2fast4yourBrain]
#1228737
05/10/12 12:50 AM
05/10/12 12:50 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
Quote:
As far as alterkation durability, seems like you'd see more breakage of all those drag cars doing wheelstands with them.
Pure jounce, like coming down from a wheelie, I think the RMS setup is fine. It is lateral forces and road impacts where it becomes problematic.
Rick
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
#1228738
05/10/12 01:27 AM
05/10/12 01:27 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
...(2) not enough adjustability in factory stock form to take full advantage of modern tire technology, and ...
Not true. There's people that have got 1-3 degrees caster with stock geometry bushing.
The GM A-body guys have a tough time getting to 2-3 deg positive caster because the UCA dogbone will hit the steering shaft.
When I just service replaced my UCA bushing with the rubber offset Moog's I can get MORE caster and camber than a GM A-body with stock UCA's with any bushing installed.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DRJDVM]
#1228739
05/10/12 01:41 AM
05/10/12 01:41 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
Won alot and dominated the Trans Am circuit.......yes
But correct me if I'm wrong... Those weren't totally stock..... And THAT WAS 40+ YEARS AGO!!!!!!
And then people pull out magazine articles from the 70's to discuss suspension design? You have got to be kidding me.....
Things change with time......design and technology change.....if you don't like the RMS kit then fine..... But to tout suspensions that dominated 40 years ago is ridiculous
The RMS kit has its flaws and isn't for everyone.... And that's okay.... But stop living in the past
Guys.... It's okay to not live in the 70's still..... It's okay to not keep your mopar 100% stock original.....
Let it go...... Last I checked it's 2012..... Not 1970
If you want to drive a car that feels like and handles like the "top of the line in 1970" then that's your choice.... Some of us choose to evolve alittle and have open minds for newer stuff
Show me some failures...... And give me a good reason why no one but big trucks still use torsion bars
Would you consider the improvements you've done to your 69 Camaro stock based suspension.
I would.
People here aren't debating about still running stone stock bias ply tires, 318 front springs, and stock sized sway bars.
Two different paths to modifications. Still modification with new parts.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DirectSubjection]
#1228742
05/10/12 09:00 AM
05/10/12 09:00 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,445
Morristown Tn.
71birdJ68
master
|
master
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,445
Morristown Tn.
|
Quote:
Quote:
Just curious, but if torsion bar systems are so great, how come they aren't used anymore?
they are, just on 4wd IFS trucks.....
My 1-ton Chevy dually had them.
You'd be suppressed just now many new cars and trucks use T bars, several sons of nippon vehicles
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DRJDVM]
#1228743
05/10/12 10:17 AM
05/10/12 10:17 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
|
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
|
Well lets take the 1970 Trans Am series:
Ford 72pts
AMC 59pts
Chevy 40pts
Dodge 18pts
Plymouth 15pts
Dodge/Plymouth didn't win a single race that year.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1228747
05/10/12 02:58 PM
05/10/12 02:58 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
|
Exactly, a driveline failure is not the same as a suspension failure. Mopars did not loose any races because of suspension failure. Suspensions are what we are talking about here. However, they did manage to qualify number one several times, and typically were in the top qualifiers on any given day. That is a good reflection of how well the suspension was working on that particular day. Engine and transmission failure is what kept them from consistently visiting the podium.
So again, any detractors please chime in; what is so bad about the mopar suspension design that a modern design has all over it? Shocks, those can be changed, camber gain, hardly. Toe & bump, that can be adjusted, caster, again, adjustment. Only things I can think of are perhaps somewhat lighter weight (depending on design used), more compact packaging (again, design dependant), and greater spring choice (if you need a range of choice). SO, with a street driven mopar, how are those items so far superior that they can run laps around a classic longitudal t-bar?
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1228749
05/10/12 03:11 PM
05/10/12 03:11 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,989
Oregon
|
The original Mopar suspension design is very good. So good, that 50 years later it still works just fine at 150 mph on any road race course. Wheel travel is one limitation as is ride height. You just can't get the factory suspension low enough to go really fast. If you lower the car too much you run out of travel and then you hit the wall when the suspension bottoms out. Some mods can be made, but they start to get rather involved.
One really big drawback is the factory steering box and linkage. And to change that over to a rack requires a bucket load of changes. Which then naturally leads to products like what MagnumForce and RMS and others are building.
But, if you're willing to live with the limitations of the factory ride height and steering box, and you can build headers that clear the torsion bars, then the factory suspension design works just fine up past 150 mph road racing.
For a 200 mph car you would need to make some fairly significant changes.
Last edited by AndyF; 05/10/12 03:11 PM.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: savoy64]
#1228752
05/10/12 04:22 PM
05/10/12 04:22 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
but when you bray about your superiority it brings to mind the mopar action article about putting viper brakes on a B body---they put on one side and went out to test the brakes--60 mph panic stop the car stops straight---their conclusion mopar made good brakes to begin with---if you want to spend the money on new shiny viper brakes--ok---just dont start bragging about how superior you are-
this it the reason I take a lot of what "experts' say with a grain of salt....
1) this is not a repeatable scientific test in a controlled environment
2) the point of the viper brakes isn't necessarily total clamping force--a single panic stop from 60 should lock up the wheels, even with the standard 10.87" rotors as tire grip will be the limiting factor. the advantage to a viper brake swap is the rigidity of the caliper, which helps in brake feel and modulation, and the larger swept area of the pad, which should help in heat dissipation and fade resistance, as well as the larger diameter rotor (11.75" using the larger R body rotors) which also have better heat dissipation due to larger swept area AND more mass. Try this test from 100mph or 4 back-to-back-to-back-to-back stops and lets see if it still tracks straight.
stuff like this, or beating on a spindle clamped in a vice with a 20lb sledge are some of the "testing" that makes me shake my head....
there are advantages and disadvantages to each system (as Andy noted, the larger driver of a modern coil over system like the alterKtion are 1) rack and pinion steering 2) package savings and 3) weight savings; the lesser advantages are more adjustability/tunability and a larger choice of brake options
as far as lack of 100k hour durability testing, etc on aftermarket setups, yeah, that's true, but with most well engineered designs (which IMHO the alterK is one of the better engineered designs out there), they are typically overbuilt with a bit of a safety factor in them. With some of the "sky is falling" statements throughout this thread, makes me wonder if e-booger's head may potentially explode looking at any street rod that has a coil over front suspension and ladder bar/coil over rear suspension in them because they're not OEM parts....
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DRJDVM]
#1228756
05/10/12 07:23 PM
05/10/12 07:23 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
|
Quote:
What I just don't get in the mopar world is how so many people think its blastphamy to change ANYTHING on a mopar
I'm mostly a Chevy guy..... This is my first mopar....
The mopar guys (not all of them) just seem to want to fight against anything but stock..... Just for it being something other than stock.... And you can't convince them otherwise no matter what you say or do.... If its not original it's crap...... Its just a different attitude in the Chevy world
I guess my point was to be open to other opinions and other options.... They may be right or wrong.... But don't fight against it just because it's not stock.... Newer things and change can be better...
Since I spent a decade in the Chevy and Ford world building and driving race cars, and I can say that I've noticed this same thing. However, there are some reasons for that.
First and foremost is the point is that when you deal with GM parts, you have a very wide choice and a great amount of variety of those parts. In many cases, you can buy a new part that is equal to performance of the original for less than what an original part costs. From that point you can then choose how much performance your willing to pay for as the wide variety of vendors and the wide variety of pieces available means if you want to pay for a little more performance than original, you can pay a little more money. If you want a lot more performance, you pay a lot more money. The point is the selection, price points and levels of performance are wide open.
Even the Ford guys have more options the you do with a mopar. Granted, not as wide as the GM camp, but again, they have a wide variety of parts froma wide selection of vendors. In the occasioanl odd ball part they can and do get creative because it likely is just an overlooked market item, for now, and there will be a rush to fill the void.
Because of this variety, it has created a more adventerous consumer base that is willing to pick up whatever choice maybe available. If it sucks, you simply upgrade to the next level and pass your junk off at the next swap meet.
In the mopar world, the exact opposite has happened. Very few vendors have come to market with items and when they do, there are very few levels of selection. This has created a very gaurded and cautious consumer base that is not apt to quickly jump from one product to the next and it doesn't help at all that if you are product jumping, if the vendor has selection to allow it, it will cost you 2x over the stock stuff and 3-5x the GM stuff. In many instances the only reason we have the support we have today is because the value of everything has gotten so high that vendors are willing to risk the tool up costs to provide a new part.
On those occasions when aftermarket parts have come to the counter, it occasionaly happens that you may be paying more for no better performance than some of the original stuff.
As a result of the conditions above, mopar guys tend to be a lot more apt to say "show me the money" rather than simply take a vendors word for it. In that case, you run into a number of suppliers who simply have no data to support their claim. If sales are slow, then feedback is going to be even slower which means they are not going to be able to tell potential customers that person ABC is running our goods and they won XYZ using them. The mopar community used to be pretty small and they talked a lot amongst themselves and bad vendors were weeded out pretty quickly.
You also have the case of diminshing returns on those goods. Again, since the cost of mopar parts tends to be high, it drives a review of performance and its ability to be acheived in a different light. If the stock stuff can achieve a performance level compatible with 90% of the drivers out there, there is going to be very little motivation for many to move beyond that. If it costs stock x2 to get to a 95% performance level, that again thins the buyer base. If it costs stock x4 to get to 98%, there again is another level of exclusion. If it costs stock x8 to get to 99%, then your talking about a very limited market segment that will not support very many sellers. Combine this with market conditions where those particular buyers who are at the 1% level are buying cars that are stock because being stock is what makes them so valuable, and you have the conditions that have made the mopar market what it is today.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: AndyF]
#1228758
05/10/12 09:51 PM
05/10/12 09:51 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
Quote:
The original Mopar suspension design is very good. So good, that 50 years later it still works just fine at 150 mph on any road race course. <snip!>
For a 200 mph car you would need to make some fairly significant changes.
Hmmm. I spoke to Lee Sicilio, who went 237 MPH (2-way average) with his original '69 Daytona about 10 years ago. I asked him what he did to the suspension. He said "all stock". I said, "You mean you kept stock geometry, just added bigger bars, shocks, bushings, yada...?". He said "No, stock". I said: "So, you just freshened it all up?" He made me feel stupid, reiterating: "It is all stock. original. Untouched. I'm the original owner".
I have the original SAE papers on these suspension designs. Geometry-wise, and in on-road performance, They were, literally, light-years ahead of the competition. Only in cost and NVH did they fall short.
Rick
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: can.al]
#1228761
05/11/12 12:29 AM
05/11/12 12:29 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,415
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,415
Kalispell Mt.
|
the mopars are just too cool, rare and valuable on there own to chop them up. The average guy can't afford to buy a mopar and chop it up but any hillbilly out there can find, buy and afford to chop up a stupid camaro, nova or rustang. Mopar never flooded the market with crap box, dirt cheap 2 door RWD v8 cars. Every mopar is rare compared to those kind of cars. That is why most mopar guys are opposed to chopping up their cool cars.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1228763
05/11/12 12:41 AM
05/11/12 12:41 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
Penguin-hating Ginger
|
Penguin-hating Ginger
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
|
So the car has an injected, stroker Hemi, cage, etc,etc and.. Quote:
It is all stock. original. Untouched
With 40+ year old suspension bushings, tie rod ends, etc, etc..
Ok....
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: patrick]
#1228764
05/11/12 12:51 AM
05/11/12 12:51 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
WO23Coronet
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
|
Quote:
Quote:
but when you bray about your superiority it brings to mind the mopar action article about putting viper brakes on a B body---they put on one side and went out to test the brakes--60 mph panic stop the car stops straight---their conclusion mopar made good brakes to begin with---if you want to spend the money on new shiny viper brakes--ok---just dont start bragging about how superior you are-
this it the reason I take a lot of what "experts' say with a grain of salt....
1) this is not a repeatable scientific test in a controlled environment
2) the point of the viper brakes isn't necessarily total clamping force--a single panic stop from 60 should lock up the wheels, even with the standard 10.87" rotors as tire grip will be the limiting factor. the advantage to a viper brake swap is the rigidity of the caliper, which helps in brake feel and modulation, and the larger swept area of the pad, which should help in heat dissipation and fade resistance, as well as the larger diameter rotor (11.75" using the larger R body rotors) which also have better heat dissipation due to larger swept area AND more mass. Try this test from 100mph or 4 back-to-back-to-back-to-back stops and lets see if it still tracks straight.
stuff like this, or beating on a spindle clamped in a vice with a 20lb sledge are some of the "testing" that makes me shake my head....
there are advantages and disadvantages to each system (as Andy noted, the larger driver of a modern coil over system like the alterKtion are 1) rack and pinion steering 2) package savings and 3) weight savings; the lesser advantages are more adjustability/tunability and a larger choice of brake options
as far as lack of 100k hour durability testing, etc on aftermarket setups, yeah, that's true, but with most well engineered designs (which IMHO the alterK is one of the better engineered designs out there), they are typically overbuilt with a bit of a safety factor in them. With some of the "sky is falling" statements throughout this thread, makes me wonder if e-booger's head may potentially explode looking at any street rod that has a coil over front suspension and ladder bar/coil over rear suspension in them because they're not OEM parts....
While Mr E's sledge hammer test on spindles may not be the norm for stress analysis on parts, it's still acurate from a real world perspective. The cast spindle broke, the forged one didn't. I guess he could've made a fixture for a press and used that to get them to break and noted the force needed for each, but still, the final outcome would be the same.
Mr E's points seem valid to me, and in your own words, the Alter K HASN'T had the 100K hour durability test, while the factory stuff has, and has been shown to more than competitive with any other suspension system.
Again I don't hate the Alter K and it has it's place, I just don't think it's any better than what the factory stuff can be made into, and inferior in alot of ways.
AND I'm not a purist in the sense that if it doesn't have a 509 cam and a torker intake it's junk. I personally dig on the Predator heads, although other guys lose their minds over them for not being "traditional" (although, they have a striking resemblance to a poly head, which Mopar used since '51, 14 years before GM, and 18 years befor Ford). So I'm not a hater of anything "not traditional" and relish in the past, I just don't think Mopar's NEED a coil over suspension to handle, plus they're expensive
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1228766
05/11/12 01:13 AM
05/11/12 01:13 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
|
Quote:
What I just don't get in the mopar world is how so many people think its blastphamy to change ANYTHING on a mopar
I'm mostly a Chevy guy..... This is my first mopar....
The mopar guys (not all of them) just seem to want to fight against anything but stock..... Just for it being something other than stock.... And you can't convince them otherwise no matter what you say or do.... If its not original it's crap...... Its just a different attitude in the Chevy world
I can't speak for others, but I've been modding Mopars for almost 50 years. But why change something for the sake of change? Sure, Chevy guys need to change everything -- look what they are starting with: Perimeter frames, 2-speed automatics, C-clip axles that fail regularly, etc. Mopar guys are just starting from a higher "place" -- less needs to be changed!
Rick
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1228768
05/11/12 01:22 AM
05/11/12 01:22 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,415
Kalispell Mt.
HotRodDave
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,415
Kalispell Mt.
|
Great points e-berg We also got .904 lifters and shaft rockers right from the get go.  Torsion bars are cool too because you can easily adjust them when you swap aluminum heads and intake onto your ride and want to keep the height the same.
I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1228770
05/11/12 06:10 AM
05/11/12 06:10 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
|
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
Quote:
The original Mopar suspension design is very good. So good, that 50 years later it still works just fine at 150 mph on any road race course. <snip!>
For a 200 mph car you would need to make some fairly significant changes.
Hmmm. I spoke to Lee Sicilio, who went 237 MPH (2-way average) with his original '69 Daytona about 10 years ago. I asked him what he did to the suspension. He said "all stock". I said, "You mean you kept stock geometry, just added bigger bars, shocks, bushings, yada...?". He said "No, stock". I said: "So, you just freshened it all up?" He made me feel stupid, reiterating: "It is all stock. original. Untouched. I'm the original owner".
I have the original SAE papers on these suspension designs. Geometry-wise, and in on-road performance, They were, literally, light-years ahead of the competition. Only in cost and NVH did they fall short.
Rick
Maybe i'm not even the only one here, but i've always loved that about Mopars... the NVH factor. In fact, over all the other issues i started with playing with cars (most ov my first 10 cars were GM A-bodies), that made me hate GM... it was my very first ride in a 73 Rallye Challenger that nailed the GM coffin door shut for me... That thing just felt like a race car to me. Even after doing all the big suspension upgrades to my 70 Skylark, the full GS/SS/GTO type package... it still felt like a baby buggy to me.
Long live Mopar's NVH "problem"!!! Hahaha
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: AndyF]
#1228771
05/11/12 06:16 AM
05/11/12 06:16 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
Swears too much
|
Swears too much
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
|
Quote:
But, if you're willing to live with the limitations of the factory ride height and steering box, and you can build headers that clear the torsion bars, then the factory suspension design works just fine up past 150 mph road racing.
For a 200 mph car you would need to make some fairly significant changes.
Just curious... what changes at 200 that makes the 150-spec car unsafe?
The last post brought to mind this old Hotrod magazine car... a 68 Charger with a 440 and (i believe) stock-type suspension (upgraded rates and such i'm sure) that went 190mph...
It was all black, had stock-car meanies for rollers and this hideous grill-opening dam for aero.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: OzHemi]
#1228772
05/11/12 10:25 AM
05/11/12 10:25 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
|
Quote:
So the car has an injected, stroker Hemi, cage, etc,etc and..
Quote:
It is all stock. original. Untouched
With 40+ year old suspension bushings, tie rod ends, etc, etc..
Ok....
yeah, I'll call shenanigans on that....
1976 Spinnaker White Plymouth Duster, /6 A833OD
1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
2011 Toxic Orange Dodge Charger R/T
2017 Grand Cherokee Overland
2014 Jeep Cherokee Latitude (holy crap, my daughter is driving)
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1228773
05/11/12 11:00 AM
05/11/12 11:00 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
|
Quote:
But why change something for the sake of change? Sure, Chevy guys need to change everything -- look what they are starting with: Perimeter frames, 2-speed automatics, C-clip axles that fail regularly, etc. Mopar guys are just starting from a higher "place" -- less needs to be changed!
Rick
 ...and for those of us pulling less than 1G on cruise night and keeping it under 150mph on the way to dinner, most of it doesn't need to be changed at all!
Unlike Rick, I haven't been into Mopars for 50 years; I was a died-in-the-wool GM guy having owned Chevelles, Impala's, several Cutlass and 442's, Z/28's, etc. etc....and I'm still not a "Mopar or No Car" guy; I appreciate ALL Musclecars. HOWEVER, the more I tore into my Superbee, the more impressed I was with the engineering involved. Ultimately I've come to the conclusion that (especially from a mechanical and functional design standpoint) that my 'Bee is a better designed car than my GM A bodies were.
The unibody is lighter and stiffer, the suspension is superior, the brakes are better, the tranny and rear end are stronger and the base motors are more powerful. GM did well (comparatively) on fit and finish and aesthetic items but it feels a bit like a really nice dress on a plain looking woman to me.
I don't hate GM stuff; I'd still love to get a '71-'72 Trans Am and I'd really like my old '70 W30 back but I still believe the above observations to be true.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1228776
05/11/12 12:01 PM
05/11/12 12:01 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
|
Quote:
So how to you guys feels about the leafsprings vs 3/4-link for handling? I was in a friends 71 Monte Carlo (stock sus) and that thing outhandled my 74 roadrunner (stock sus) something fierce!
My '70 W30 was the best handling GM A body I have ever driven and truthfully, it was pretty good. I'd give it points for steering feel with it's quick ratio box and the rear swaybar helped things in the handling department, I ran it with radials (Goodyear Eagle ST's) and decent gas shocks.
I think my Superbee suspension is better, simpler and stiffer. Car handles as well or better IMO, though the steering feel isn't as good. I could have gone with a Firm Feel box or something similar, but I wanted the car to feel like it did back in the day.
Leaf sprung GM's like Novas and Camaro's used springs that were WAY to light IMO and wheel hop was a huge problem....I guess that's why slapper/traction bars became such a hot item.
Another example; the 'Bee came with 15" wheels and the W30 had 14's. I don't recall the brake sizes but if memory serves, there was a significant difference there too.
Dave
Last edited by DPelletier; 05/11/12 12:03 PM.
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DPelletier]
#1228777
05/11/12 06:00 PM
05/11/12 06:00 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 115
Manteca, CA
DRJDVM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 115
Manteca, CA
|
Everyone has their opinions...... To each their own But you mopar guys seem to live in your own little corner of the universe My last comment...... Rare doesn't always mean cool.... There's a reason mopars are rare and didn't "flood the market like camaros and mustangs"....... No one wanted them!!! Sometimes there's a reason things are rare..... There are some cool ass mopars no doubt..... But damn you mopar guys think ALL mopars are the "cat's meow" It's all good...... We can agree to disagree..... Have a good weekend guy.... Drive em like you stole em!!!!
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DRJDVM]
#1228779
05/12/12 12:21 AM
05/12/12 12:21 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
|
Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
|
Quote:
My last comment...... Rare doesn't always mean cool... No one wanted them!!! Sometimes there's a reason things are rare.....
There are some cool ass mopars no doubt..... But damn you mopar guys think ALL mopars are the "cat's meow"
THIS guy is an assclown troll.
Go away and drive your Camaro into the sunset. THIS is a Mopar site. What other sort of bias would you expect here? I would be equally stupid to go to www.bellybuttoncamaro.com and say.."You dang Chevy guys think that ALL Chevys are the cats meow!
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1228781
05/12/12 10:56 AM
05/12/12 10:56 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
|
Quote:
Mopar guys are just starting from a higher "place" -- less needs to be changed!
Rick
Thanks for stating that so simply. When I was racing chevys we had to do the Guldstrand mod, heavily modify the upper control arm mount, use taller spindles, jack around with bump measurements, and install weight jacks before we could get them to perform right. With a mopar all we needed to do was swap t-bars and offset upper arm bushings, and tweak the bump.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1228782
05/12/12 11:27 AM
05/12/12 11:27 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
|
Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
|
Really? I found bump/roll steer on a Chrysler to be much worse then Chevrolet, but better then Ford.
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1228784
05/12/12 12:45 PM
05/12/12 12:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
|
Quote:
Really? I found bump/roll steer on a Chrysler to be much worse then Chevrolet, but better then Ford.
Yeah, the chevys were the worst of the bunch with my cars. I ran ran two different mopars- both 71s, three different chevys and two different Fords. Fords were on par with the mopars, but the strut rod suspension of both tended to bump worse at further points of travel compared to the chevys, but that was out of the usable range I needed so I didn't worry about it. The chevys were 1st and 2nd gen Camaros and a third gen Nova. The first gen Camaro was the obsolute worst of the bunch with a bad camber curve plus all the other GM ailements.
Quote:
Uh oh. Don't cloud a Moparts thread with factual info of what you actually had to do to race a car.
Sheldon
I know, I shouldn't go there, but sometimes its hard to resist.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: SomeCarGuy]
#1228786
05/12/12 01:45 PM
05/12/12 01:45 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
So a Chevy guy made the effort to register on Moparts, then post over 100 times? Wow. I did notice he painted his Chebby a Mopar color. Guess he regreted his Chebby purchase and it was too late.
Maybe he should swap out the GM suspension as well for Mopar stuff so he will be able to comment on this topic with some experience. Poor lost GM soul. 
I believe he also is building a Mopar. Maybe he doesn't post here often because of the "haterade".
This post ran it's course 3-4 pages ago. Now all that left to do is pointing fingers and namecalling.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1228788
05/12/12 03:44 PM
05/12/12 03:44 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,195
Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,195
Someplace you aren't
|
Quote:
Quote:
So a Chevy guy made the effort to register on Moparts, then post over 100 times? Wow. I did notice he painted his Chebby a Mopar color. Guess he regreted his Chebby purchase and it was too late.
Maybe he should swap out the GM suspension as well for Mopar stuff so he will be able to comment on this topic with some experience. Poor lost GM soul.
I believe he also is building a Mopar. Maybe he doesn't post here often because of the "haterade".
This post ran it's course 3-4 pages ago. Now all that left to do is pointing fingers and namecalling.
Maybe he should have represented that instead of being a Chevy guy first and foremost.
As for haterade, he went that way with his snobby "1970 living" crap. So take it up with him.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#1228789
05/12/12 03:59 PM
05/12/12 03:59 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,462
Mrytle Beach SC
johnscudashop
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,462
Mrytle Beach SC
|
Quote:
No need to beef up the shock towers with the AlterK. The upper shock/spring bracket is part of the AlterK. You don't use the original shock tower, as I understand it.
I agree
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1228792
05/13/12 06:10 PM
05/13/12 06:10 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 512
Niwot, CO Formerly denn...
dynorad
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 512
Niwot, CO Formerly denn...
|
Quote:
Also, the claim that all the load of the front suspension isn't supported forward of the firewall is wrong. Draw a free body diagram of the lower control arm, looking at it from the front of the car. the lower control arm mount point (LCA bushings) react all the vertical and side load on the tire. this gets transferred to the car in the K frame mounts....ahead of the firewall.
I'm with Patrick on this one. Most of what E-berg says in his magazine reply I agree with. However the loading on the front sub structure is identical between the two suspensions. If you have never drawn a free body diagram this may be difficult to accept.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: dynorad]
#1228793
05/13/12 07:19 PM
05/13/12 07:19 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
A57_RT
Parts Problem
|
Parts Problem
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
|
Panic stop a 3500# car Semi panic vid at #3250 at over 120mph, nitrous explosion, the stop was pretty smooth in the vid, but the front rotors were purple after this stop. My brakes never lock, but with both feet on the ped I can almost get them to, I like it that way, with the bias adjustment. With 4 wheel disc and good bias I was lucky, id say one more second at wot and id not of made the stop before the fire station. My frame rails are braced from the front to the trans tunnel mount where the cage and frame connectors meet. Yes this was very foolish on my part, but as a street car I run it hard...could I have stopped the car with oem brakes, susp?.... I dont think so, but thats pure speculation on my part. No doubts the f body oem front has alot to be desired but I feel im in the small% that can use the RMS system as a true upgrade. It was hard to spend more on a front end unit when many f body cars sell for. J body, you had more front end travel with your oem front end, but you gain the adjustability and the ease of it. As the springs are only 9 inchs tall and take at least 2 out for adjustment and what the coils take up. But well worth it. Some run 350# for the track, I like #300 and as known the caltrack/monos lift on launch vs squat. I was very lucky that day, a few hurt parts and some paint work and all was good. The only mod I did with my alterk was to mount the steering arm eyelet on the frame rail va as placed on the unit. I do inspect the unit each time everything else gets checked, the only thing ive had to keep an eye on is the lower control arm shaft bolts on each end I re locktight them from time to time and yes the set screw is tight on the shaft. Panic stop and then some, but really with a pretty well built car and staying calm only the vid makes me skiddish.... http://s1117.photobucket.com/albums/k589...rent=RTWEB1.mp4
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1228795
05/14/12 09:07 AM
05/14/12 09:07 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
540challenger
master
|
master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,826
NY usa
|
Quote:
Look at that bottom control mount and you will see what Rick is talking about. Panic stop a 3500# car and it might brake off or after a few thousand miles the wear on that bolt. Now look at a stock strut bar, much better load distribution. That is the major flaw of this system.But would be easy to fix by adding the bar so it lines up to the center line of the lower bolt so they both rotate on the same axis.
are you talking the zinc bolt that has the sliver washer on it in the pick??? Cause that bolt wouldn't break in a panic stop that bolt just keeps the steel shaft from moving foward or back. The load is on the steel shaft that runs thorugh the K-frame supoorted by 4 poly bushings in a welded tube. I can't see that failing from a panic stop...
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1228796
05/14/12 10:48 AM
05/14/12 10:48 AM
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 236
Maryland
cudaboone
OP
enthusiast
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 236
Maryland
|
Quote:
See, thats the thing. The reason I love Mopars is the great engineering that went into them in the day. T-bars are just one of the great pieces in them. Perhaps that's why I'm not crazy about modified ones that cut the unique bits out. If you modify a Camaro or Mustang you are improving it and it came with the inferior coil springs from the factory anyway. When you chop the T-bars out of a Mopar you've took away it's heritage and superior engineering, you might as well cut up a Yugo instead.
As far as Mopar Action being in the past, I don't find that to be true at all. It's the only magazine I buy, but when I quit buying it, it will because the articles on Red E-bodies with modified new "Hemis" and coil suspension overpower the interesting tech articles, it's getting pretty close right now. I bet they've got another two red E-body's with 5.7's lined up right now for the next issue. They're just like the red Camaros that Car Craft used to run.
It is also the only mag i get and i feel the same way.
Sheldon
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1228801
05/14/12 06:16 PM
05/14/12 06:16 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
Jim_Lusk
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 18,677
Fresno, CA
|
Quote:
It looks like the control arm is on the wrong side of the car. The angle of the top of the ball joint should be level with the floor with the control arm attached to the factory mounts.
Yeah.... This is MUCH better than stock!
First time I've seen the pivot points on a control arm not be in a straight line with each other. I don't know what kind of issue that might have, but it's different...
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION??
[Re: abodyjoe]
#1228804
05/14/12 09:57 PM
05/14/12 09:57 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
Bill MeLater
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 671
Wisconsin USA
|
Quote:
Quote:
I'll add that I also agree that the means RMS used to eliminate bump steer seemed odd. Rick referred to it as a "cantilevered" design.
In smoothe surfaces, the design probably works fine. Imagine taking it on the neglected roads that we drive on every day. The dips, cracks, ruts and potholes would certainly take a toll.
my alter-k has been in my dart since july of 2006. its all crappy pot hole (should see my road. wish they would fix the damn thing soon) dip all over south jersey/pa roads driven. system has held up fine. all original heim joints and all. i grease everything every spring while i'm checking the car over for the summer season. if it wasn't a 80 mile round trip for work or gas was $1 a gallon again i would daily drive the car. no doubts in my mind that the system would hold up to daily abuse. only issue i have is that the paint i used on it when it was new is falling the hell off. that pisses me off..
You actually snuck in a DOUBLE swear and got away with it..
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1228805
05/14/12 10:05 PM
05/14/12 10:05 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
68Plymouths
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
|
Quote:
Wow! That does look like junk. It just shows that those Chrysler Engineers years in school was put to good use not designing something like that.
Sheldon
Really? From your vast technical and engineering knowledge, as well as your many years of hands on suspension fabrication experience, I am sure you will point out any flaws that I have made in the steering and suspension geometry. Btw, a very similar design happens to be on many super late model race cars (specxifically Rayburn and GRT). They seem to be able to take corners at around 130mph on a 1/2 mile track. Like to see a stock Mope front-end do that... 
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: RUNCHARGER]
#1228808
05/15/12 09:26 AM
05/15/12 09:26 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
68Plymouths
member
|
member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
|
Quote:
Do you know anything about gusseting, over angling joints, the effects of leveridging? Hope you don't drive that on a public highway.
Sheldon
I don't know about leveridging. Never even heard of it. Is that a new technical term? 
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#1228809
05/15/12 10:51 AM
05/15/12 10:51 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,386
Pikes Peak Country
|
Quote:
It looks like the control arm is on the wrong side of the car. The angle of the top of the ball joint should be level with the floor with the control arm attached to the factory mounts.
Quote:
First time I've seen the pivot points on a control arm not be in a straight line with each other.
Its an optical illusion because of the camera angle in the shot. Actually, the upper arm pivots are in plane, they are just level instead of angled. This is anti-dive and it has been removed in this demonstration.
This appears to be a collection of parts from different vendors to address differing issues. There are Magnumforce double adjustable uppers mounting in the a plane similar to the Hotchkis design using a QA1 lower with a strut rod and the t-bar has been replaced by a coil over.
Once you start dropping the ride height of the car, the stock geometry starts to change. Not radically at first, but the lower you go, the more it changes. There becomes a point where you get low enough you need to revise some of the angles to restore its operation through its arcs. That's what we have here. Can't say if the builder figured it out on his own, had some help, ran it through a program or what. I can say that based on my experience, there is logic behind most of what is happening here. The camber curve change is a bit more nebulus as Mopar have decent camber gain already and unless you're getting a lot of body roll, you typically don't need to change it radically. Will it improve the handling, yes. Will it last 250,000 miles, I have no idea. But then again, these cars are not daily driver knocking down 20k miles a year anymore and they usually get regular inspection now that they didn't enjoy earlier in their lives. I wouldn't be as worried about the geometry of it all so much as having all the weight on that coil over going in to the inner fender. If it is properly supported on the engine side, then it may last.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: Jim_Lusk]
#1228812
05/15/12 01:38 PM
05/15/12 01:38 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
|
Quote:
Quote:
It looks like the control arm is on the wrong side of the car. The angle of the top of the ball joint should be level with the floor with the control arm attached to the factory mounts.
Yeah.... This is MUCH better than stock!
First time I've seen the pivot points on a control arm not be in a straight line with each other. I don't know what kind of issue that might have, but it's different...
Hotchkis A-arm for B/E body has most of the anti-dive removed from them too. They said it was for caster change in bump that gave them bumpsteer. Makes sense.
I don't think the Hotchkis stuff is zero anti dive. But greatly reduced.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1228813
05/15/12 09:36 PM
05/15/12 09:36 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,878
Willow Grove PA
71sat440
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,878
Willow Grove PA
|
Quote:
So how to you guys feels about the leafsprings vs 3/4-link for handling? I was in a friends 71 Monte Carlo (stock sus) and that thing outhandled my 74 roadrunner (stock sus) something fierce!
Go drive any of the newer pre 2005 mustangs (except IRS cobras)
They all have triangulated 4 link rears.
They have their weaknesses like bushing bind in hard corners, bushing bind though out the up and down motion because the triangle end wants to kind of tighten up.
In a triangulated system your asking the arms to do two separate jobs.
Control side to side motion AND up and down motion.
Ideally you would want something like a pan hard bar to control side to side motion so the control arms only have to worry about up and down motion.
|
|
|
Re: ALTERKATION - 3rd dwg and caption
[Re: DARTH V8Я]
#1228815
05/16/12 03:41 PM
05/16/12 03:41 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 115
Manteca, CA
DRJDVM
member
|
member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 115
Manteca, CA
|
Frankenduster and Supercuda...... Wow.... Dont get you panties all wadded up.... They might get hooked on the stick up your..... Nevermind.... You aren't worth it......
Damn..... Take a different opinion and make it personal.... Totally uncalled for and unnecessary......
I am building a 70 cuda.... And cutting it up.....if you don't like it I don't care. I'm on this site to learn about mopars, enjoy the hobby, meet new people and get different opinions and until now EVERYONE has been great.... I've enjoyed the site alot...... Until the posts by frankenduster etc
No I don't post alot..... Big deal.... Alot of stuff on here is about stock stuff and that's not my thing.... So what?
And I'll put my camaro up against any POS car either of you have in your garage
This thread has totally run its course..... So I'm going to leave it alone before the Internet warriors out there that can't handle a different opinion ...... Or simply hate guys that have interests or drive other cars that aren't mopars.....get even more uptight and unleash more personal attacks.... Getting into a pissing match with some guys on the Internet isn't worth it...... Peace out......
Last edited by DRJDVM; 05/16/12 03:58 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
(2).jpg){kind=link}
![7196756-DSC02721[1].JPG](/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/127982/filename/7196756-DSC02721[1].JPG){kind=link}
![7196798-DSC02792[1].JPG](/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/127983/filename/7196798-DSC02792[1].JPG){kind=link}
![7196806-DSC02721[1].JPG](/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/127984/filename/7196806-DSC02721[1].JPG){kind=link}
![7196818-DSC02792[1].JPG](/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/127986/filename/7196818-DSC02792[1].JPG){kind=link}
![7196827-DSC02792[1].JPG](/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/127987/filename/7196827-DSC02792[1].JPG){kind=link}
