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Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228665
05/08/12 12:56 AM
05/08/12 12:56 AM
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Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Quote:

No need to beef up the shock towers with the AlterK. The upper shock/spring bracket is part of the AlterK. You don't use the original shock tower, as I understand it.




I understand that the coil over design is supported by the redesigned K member. In factory form, the "spring" action and resistance is divided between the frame rails and the torsion bar crossmember. With the RMS, now everything centers around the 4 bolts retaining the K member.

Crappy in stock form? Sure, you are entitled to your opinion, but people that I respect disagree with you. Name any suspension from the other American automakers that had a better design? I'll agree that the idler arm is a weak point. It flexes more than it should, but the traditional torsion bar design allowed for the forces (AND weight) of the suspension to be spread out. As much as it is a pisser for header clearance, REAR steer is better for weight balance since the weight of the components are closer to the center of the car. Look at any GM suspension of the 60s or 70s. BIG lower A arms, fatter sway bars with longer levers, front steer with longer steering columns.... ALL of that conspires to move weight away from center. Fords? You want to hear about header interference? How about shock towers the size of the world trade center TWIN towers! That design puts a coil spring ABOVE the upper control arm !!??? GREAT ! lets put the weight up HIGHER in the car!

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Jim_Lusk] #1228666
05/08/12 12:58 AM
05/08/12 12:58 AM
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Round Lake Beach, Illinoisy
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Rhinotruck
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Quote:

No need to beef up the shock towers with the AlterK. The upper shock/spring bracket is part of the AlterK. You don't use the original shock tower, as I understand it.




You are right Jim, I guess I kinda worded it wrong. I put an Alter-K in a car but it has been awhile. I have been to Bill's shop and have seen first-hand what kind of engineering and design that goes into each suspension system he builds and it is good enough for me!


The funny thing about science is that if you change one miniscule parameter you change the entire outcome to the way you want it.

JB Rhinehart, Realist

A-Body's RULE!
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: savoy64] #1228667
05/08/12 01:03 AM
05/08/12 01:03 AM
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RSNOMO Offline
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'alot of trans am races were won by those antiquated torsion bars'

Agreed...

The system wasn't designed to get air, it was designed in Highland Park for a passenger car application...

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: RSNOMO] #1228668
05/08/12 01:18 AM
05/08/12 01:18 AM
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A57_RT Offline
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Frankie,

Bone up a lil on some of the RMS stuff, the F body unit uses the 4 k frame bolts, and also bolts to the front frame rails which helps support the actual shock tower built in the unit, so in reality ive 8 mounting points.






I understand that the coil over design is supported by the redesigned K member. In factory form, the "spring" action and resistance is divided between the frame rails and the torsion bar crossmember. With the RMS, now everything centers around the 4 bolts retaining the K member.

7196756-DSC02721[1].JPG (491 downloads)
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228669
05/08/12 01:25 AM
05/08/12 01:25 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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Quote:

Frankie,

Bone up a lil on some of the RMS stuff, the F body unit uses the 4 k frame bolts, and also bolts to the front frame rails which helps support the actual shock tower built in the unit, so in reality ive 8 mounting points.




I forgot about the transverse t bar cars. In my defense, MAYBE the frame rails are THICKER in the FMJ cars???

I'm not against a better mousetrap, and I have nothing personal against Mr Reilly. I just clearly agree with Mr E on this one.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Kern Dog] #1228670
05/08/12 01:52 AM
05/08/12 01:52 AM
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A57_RT Offline
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I think its semi easy to see the ones with them love them, I dont know of anyone who said, its junk off it goes.

Mines driven alot and hard and in the f bodies case not only does it remove weight it brings it back to the centerline of the front wheels vs all the tvtb weight hanging out front.

I think the only way one would not like the alterktion is that it dont feel like your driving an old mopsr, it feels like your in a much more modern car and with all things equal to the RMS quality and setup, its a hard combo to beat.

At 3200 pounds I see big pig suvs with smaller rotors up front and out back vs some of what us use.

I got a crapload of older car mags and reading looking back, so much changes and so much is BS and alot proves itself later in time.

So I dont bother with any of the mags, most are just one persons opinion or a half/azzed attempt to surmise a whole build/project with limited space for pics and print...

But its all good, no one makes people go out and buy them and not knowing you or Rick E, its your choice to like or dislike the units.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1228671
05/08/12 01:52 AM
05/08/12 01:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 4,254
Canada
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Quote:

I have read many car articles in many magazines over my life racing cars, I have seen outright lies in print put in by the writer to increase sells. My question on most magazine scribes and their ability to be a authority is what is there background, a degree in writing or are they car racers,Engineers, fabricators or racers that got a job at a magazine writing technical articles Probally there educated in English, publishing and writing, even then I wonder about some of thier wording When I see questions like this I wonder who the writer is and what is his expertise to be a authority on the subject he is writing about You know the old adage, don't beleive anything you hear or read and only half of what you actually see When it comes to money, people lie and cheat




So what exactly are you saying Cab? I'm not suggesting one way or the other, but in you statement are you referring to the original poster or E-Booger. If it's E-Booger the guy has an SAE in engineering (I don't think he has an engineering degree but he's been given the SAE status, not sure how that work's but it does go toward his credibility), and has never been anybody's advertising bit#h.

Mr E seems to have his stuff together and his article explained why he doesn't like the coil over conversions for normal/heavy street use. He doesn't hate it or have a beef with Mr Reilly personally (he even stated that in his article), just a difference in opinion I guess that seems to be steeped in engineering and common sense. Has anyone that's commented actually have the education/knowledge to back up their claim? Such as an engineer? I'm not but what Mr E has said in his article makes sense, torsion bar cars weren't designed to bare the weight of the front of the car past the firewall, and the Alter K does just that. With proper reenforcing, it can work, which has already been stated. The cantilevered tie rod ends, well, that also makes sense as to why it's not ideal. Just because something "hasn't failed yet" doesn't mean it's right.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: WO23Coronet] #1228672
05/08/12 02:01 AM
05/08/12 02:01 AM
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torsion bar cars weren't designed to bare the weight of the front of the car past the firewall

Hmmm, so lets make it worse and put the torsion bars in front on the front wheel centerline as like the f body cars.

Rides good, not, poor poor design, the chrysler hats admit the only reason the f body cars got the junk front torsion bar system is mopar didnt want to give up the torsion bar reference since so much of the past was based on it.

So in this case the front office went against what there own "experts" told them.......so about the ....torsion bar cars weren't designed to bare the weight of the front of the car past the firewall comment.... does not apply across the whole spectrum of the mopar world.

So lets get smart here and mount the t bar system about 18 inches in front of the front wheel centerline, thats what 4-5 feet infront of the firewall....

Would you rather have this....

7196798-DSC02792[1].JPG (526 downloads)
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228673
05/08/12 02:08 AM
05/08/12 02:08 AM
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Or this...I would pick the above if I were still in truck, tractor pulling, wouldnt have to add much weight to the front bumper, because ma mapar already put it there....hows that for design and the thought of the t bars dont belong in front of the firewall....I will second that one, but say they dont belong in front of the front tires.

7196806-DSC02721[1].JPG (500 downloads)
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228674
05/08/12 02:10 AM
05/08/12 02:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Hey A57.....
Sorry dude! We A, B and E body guys sometimes forget that Mopar was still building cars after 1971!
I have never had much love for the FMJ cars, but when I DO see them in nice form, I give the owner his due respect. I think that I may have seen yours... Silver, right? Pretty cool.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Kern Dog] #1228675
05/08/12 02:13 AM
05/08/12 02:13 AM
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Yep, one of them....

7196815-DSC01651.JPG (414 downloads)
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228676
05/08/12 02:15 AM
05/08/12 02:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,431
USA
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SSAAHemiFan Offline
top fuel
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I thought Rick explained himself very well - The article was well written and addressed each concern point by point.

Rick has a SAE cert and don't forget his accomplishments with the Green Brick.

When you see what a OEM has to go thru to get things DOT approved, you will understand where he is coming from.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: SSAAHemiFan] #1228677
05/08/12 02:17 AM
05/08/12 02:17 AM
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The Dot must of been closed the day mopar slipped this one by....

7196818-DSC02792[1].JPG (636 downloads)
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228678
05/08/12 02:18 AM
05/08/12 02:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog Offline
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THAT car is great. If they were smog exempt here I'd own one. Make mine a 77 Road Runner in Black with YOUR spoilers, wheels and tires.
The legislature has a bill pending that may extend the smog exemption to 1980 and older cars. If that happens, you WILL hear about it.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: Kern Dog] #1228679
05/08/12 02:24 AM
05/08/12 02:24 AM
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How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks.

Yes Frank, F-s are a different but fun cars.

7196827-DSC02792[1].JPG (472 downloads)
Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: WO23Coronet] #1228680
05/08/12 02:53 AM
05/08/12 02:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Online content
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Quote:

...SAE in engineering (I don't think he has an engineering degree but he's been given the SAE status, not sure how that work's but it does go toward his credibility),...




If it's a full SAE Certificate, it's something like this: http://www.sae.org/training/seminars/certificate/
About 6 course at about $1400 avg cost per course if you are an SAE member.

Otherwise, if you pay dues you are a member of SAE. They send you a certificate of membership. I'm a member, student member, student chapter president, Formula SAE Design captain, student chapter award of excellance...That and 50 cents will buy me a cup of coffee.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: slantzilla] #1228681
05/08/12 03:59 AM
05/08/12 03:59 AM
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Posts: 27,444
So Cal
autoxcuda Online content
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Quote:

If you really take a look at how a stock Mopar front suspension works you'd realize what a piece of crap it is. The upper A-arm moves in so many different directions there is no way it can not bump steer. Watch any stock suspension Mopar (especially an A body) come down from a wheelstand at the drag strip. The front wheel moves more directions than Shakira's azz.

You think just because you don't wheelstand you've got nothing to worry about? That's just an example of what the geometry looks like going through it's travel. Yours will do the same thing hitting bumps on the highway at speed.

Will it affect most people? No, but an AlterK-Tion addresses the real issues for those who want a suspension that works properly.




I've bumpsteered my stock geometry setup. I got 1/16 toe out in Bump/Compression at 3" travel and 1/8 toe in in Jounce/Extension at 3" travel. Not going to see 3" of travel on the street or on a road course.

Stock upper control arms have anti dive built into them. So the upper ball joint will move forward and back. So do Camaros, Mustangs, Chevelles of the same era. Something simple drag race suspension don't worry about.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228682
05/08/12 04:10 AM
05/08/12 04:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:

How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks.





That picture REALLY puts things in perspective. W O W ! To think that hundreds of thousands of those patrolled the streets as Police cruisers!

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228683
05/08/12 04:40 AM
05/08/12 04:40 AM
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Posts: 4,862
the frozen wastes...
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Quote:

The Dot must of been closed the day mopar slipped this one by....




Okay, i'll admit i've never really bothered to look at one ov these things out ov the car before, but WOW... if nothing else, that sucker looks HEAVY...

And to Cab, your skepticism towards the written word (ad?) in car mags is well-earned. I've stopped buying mags years ago because ov it. They're more money than passion these days. You ALWAYS should ask who is saying something, and what they're credentials are, or what have they done. I think in that respect Rich Ehrenburg is about the best guy you could get to write these articles. I think if anyone, he's earned that distinction. I dont care if he skipped out ov school after grade two, i'd trust his input on matters like this before i trust my friends input after his 10 years ov mechanical engineering education.

Re: ALTERKATION HATED BY MOPAR ACTION?? [Re: A57_RT ] #1228684
05/08/12 07:59 AM
05/08/12 07:59 AM
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Posts: 5,336
the house on the left.
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Quote:

How much dead weight is in front of the red line,.....in front of the front wheel centerline? Take the weight factor and how far forward it is and equate that over to the real impact of it all. It sucks.

Yes Frank, F-s are a different but fun cars.





weren't those cars recalled early on too because of something was cracking? upper control arms or something? they used some kind of bracket for the fix

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