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3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? #1218537
04/19/12 12:11 AM
04/19/12 12:11 AM
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Clinton Twp... north of Deetro...
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Labratt Offline OP
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Is this change worth doing on a 6500rpm 440? My block is at the machine shop,and I thought this would be a worthy upgrade. Chuck Senatore states in his book that it is. What are your opinions? Thanks,fella's! Randy B.

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218538
04/19/12 12:16 AM
04/19/12 12:16 AM
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Romeo MI
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JMO Randy.... nope... you arent spinning high enough
and its too easy to crack out(it gets real thin in
the boss area)and if you do crack it out... then its
a external pick up.......... again... JMO

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218539
04/19/12 12:20 AM
04/19/12 12:20 AM
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I have spun my 500ci 7400 at times with a 3/8 pickup and never had any issues.

That area looked way to thin for me to try drilling it and tapping it.


67 Barracuda street/bracket car 11.27-119
68 Dart 502 BB 8.70s-152
414 cid SB Dragster 7.65-174
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1218540
04/19/12 12:22 AM
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Thanks for that info,Mike! I definately don't want to crack the block....and have to spend MORE money on an external set-up! This project is already setting me back a pretty penny!

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218541
04/19/12 12:27 AM
04/19/12 12:27 AM
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Quote:

Thanks for that info,Mike! I definately don't want to crack the block....and have to spend MORE money on an external set-up! This project is already setting me back a pretty penny!




I hear ya.... stop on by.... I have a few Blues for ya... LOL

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1218542
04/19/12 12:40 AM
04/19/12 12:40 AM
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Quote:

JMO Randy.... nope... you arent spinning high enough
and its too easy to crack out(it gets real thin in
the boss area)and if you do crack it out... then its
a external pick up.......... again... JMO



Been there done that, external pickups can be a real pain I shift my 518 motor at or above 7000 RPM on every run, stock Mopar 440 6 pak 3/8 pickup and 6 quart oil pan


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1218543
04/19/12 12:43 AM
04/19/12 12:43 AM
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I just might take ya up on that! A FEW Blues are always welcome! I've been VERY BUSY lately,with packing up the house and all...but,I'll try to take a little break and stop by...SOON!

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Cab_Burge] #1218544
04/19/12 12:47 AM
04/19/12 12:47 AM
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Thanks for your opinion,Dahrl...Mr.Cab! Don't want to go the external route if I can help it!

Last edited by Labratt; 04/19/12 12:49 AM.
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218545
04/19/12 10:58 AM
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If by "block mod" you mean smoothing out the hard 90 degree turn the oil makes right after entering the block, I would say definitely do that. It is a 10 minute deal and costs nothing if you already have the tools.

I don't think increasing the oil pickup to 1/2 is necessary, but it does not do any harm unless the procedure is messed up. At that point it does a whole bunch of harm I would never do it to one that looked thin to begin with. So if there are any second thoughts, don't do it


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218546
04/19/12 11:08 AM
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Just another vote for leaving the 3/8" pickup. Not necessary. Built plenty with 3/8 pickups and no problems. One of the reasons why the Hemi got the 1/2 pickup was less about performance and rpm and more about the oil demands of feeding 4 rocker shatfs/stands. But what the hell do I know.

MB

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: ZIPPY] #1218547
04/19/12 11:46 AM
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Shelby Twp. Mi
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Quote:

If by "block mod" you mean smoothing out the hard 90 degree turn the oil makes right after entering the block, I would say definitely do that. It is a 10 minute deal and costs nothing if you already have the tools.

I don't think increasing the oil pickup to 1/2 is necessary, but it does not do any harm unless the procedure is messed up. At that point it does a whole bunch of harm I would never do it to one that looked thin to begin with. So if there are any second thoughts, don't do it



Yes X2 with Rich...leave it at 3/8" NPT but, using the 1/2" pipe tube. And get in the block with a carbide and radius the intersecting passages. I'd also ream the oil passages to the mains...I think it's a 17/64"

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: HardcoreB] #1218548
04/19/12 11:58 AM
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This post makes me feel alot better about my 3/8 pickup. I dont rev it past 6500. It seems to run about the same if I shift at 6800 or 6300 so I figured I might as well keep the r's down and save on the engine a little.


67' charger 499 RB 10.57 at 127
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: dragram440] #1218549
04/19/12 12:25 PM
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I do agree 3/8 is fine for what you are doing Randy. But I did take mine to 1/2" since my brother has the right tools at his machine shop and my block looked fine for the mod. As long as it is done right it cant hurt at all and I dont mind feeling good about my oiling system and I have just got used to doing my blocks that look good. We started it years ago on my brothers low deck 400 block with B1 heads that he built back about 20 years ago. He twisted it pretty good and it ran 8.90's in his 2600 lb Cuda with a single carb on all motor. So we have just got used to doing it for extra precation. But I agree the 3/8 works fine for most bigblocks until it gets real serious. Ron


Last edited by 383man; 04/19/12 12:27 PM.
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: 383man] #1218550
04/19/12 12:52 PM
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Here is another thing that hasn't been mentioned yet, but is very important to note.

The 1/2" pickup mod will/may limit your choices when going to a longer stroke. The boss(even with 2.200 rod pin) needs to be clipped to clear the rod big end with stroker setups. Plus now you have a larger diameter tube to contend with.

Measure twice/cut once.


MB

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: HPMike] #1218551
04/19/12 05:04 PM
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I don't really understand why it is necessary to begin with. Fluid can only flow as much as the smallest bottleneck. So rather you have a 20oz pepsi, or a 2qt pepsi bottle, it's gonna flow out the end of the bottle at the same rate. Maybe someone will correct me if I am wrong about my theory.

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: HPMike] #1218552
04/19/12 05:08 PM
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Thanks EVERYONE,for your opinions! I told Sean this morning to leave it as is. After the last 6 yrs. of beating on this motor,the bearings....and ALL the other parts looked pretty darn good! Mr. P-Body can attest to that! My main concern was to strengthen the bottom end,and I think by going with ARP-studded, aluminum main caps..and h-beam rods,that should do it!

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: viperblue72] #1218553
04/19/12 05:26 PM
04/19/12 05:26 PM
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Quote:

I don't really understand why it is necessary to begin with. Fluid can only flow as much as the smallest bottleneck. So rather you have a 20oz pepsi, or a 2qt pepsi bottle, it's gonna flow out the end of the bottle at the same rate. Maybe someone will correct me if I am wrong about my theory.




This is on the suction side... you ALWAYS try to
have a larger inlet to your pump... REMEMBER...
pumps dont suck... its still atmospheric pressure
pushing the oil in.. all the pump does is create the
negative pressure zone so the oil can get pushed in....
no difference than the intake and pistons(piston creates
the negative so atmospheric pressure can push in
the air/fuel

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218554
04/19/12 07:34 PM
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Good deal Randy lots of 9 second cars out there with internal 3/8's pickups.
I just spent about an hour smoothing the passages in the pump and pick-up passages on my engine
Make sure you spend some time with a dremmel or die grinder on your oil pump
Gus

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Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218555
04/19/12 07:42 PM
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3/8th's on all of our engines..we don't go past 65-6800,so we don't feel the mod is needed.Never have had any bearing or oil related issues.


Nautilus Racing-
We use Superformance gaskets and Turbo Action converters/products.
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: fourgearsavoy] #1218556
04/20/12 12:37 AM
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Thanks guys! Gus..what do you suggest doing with the dremmel? I didn't notice any casting flash on my Melling HV63 pump! Should something on the pump be opened-up? Thanks! Randy

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218557
04/20/12 01:05 AM
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Quote:

Thanks guys! Gus..what do you suggest doing with the dremmel? I didn't notice any casting flash on my Melling HV63 pump! Should something on the pump be opened-up? Thanks! Randy




I dont know if your pump has it Randy but where the
2 holes intersect on the bottom (below the rotor)
there if usually a bad corner which can be radiused
for better flow


Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1218558
04/20/12 06:21 AM
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Lots of good advise here, Randy . I agree with Sean about opening up the feeo above the mains to 17/64" and doing the radius at the sharp 90 degree turn at the pick-up. Ask Shawn about grooving the cam journal or cam bearing for full time oiling up top to see if it is worth it for your application.

Randy

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218559
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Quote:

Thanks guys! Gus..what do you suggest doing with the dremmel? I didn't notice any casting flash on my Melling HV63 pump! Should something on the pump be opened-up? Thanks! Randy




Is it a new pump? The last three Melling pumps that that I bought (they were the HP63) the cover and body of the pump were badly misaligned. Check the pressure side oil passage between the body and cover. On all three I had to enlarge the two small bolt holes in the cover then pinned it in the correct location. IIRC I also opened up that same oil passage in the cover to more closely match the oil passage diameter in the body. This was a few years ago, and in the HP pump, yours could be different.

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: BSB67] #1218560
04/20/12 10:23 AM
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Thanks,Raff!...Sean..Randy,I'll ask Sean about the procedures you mention,when I drop off my seal holder,and connecting rods. Russ,my pump was originally installed new,back in 2000. I'll give it a good looking-over! BTW....ALWAYS had good pressure..even with engine hot(200 deg.)it wouldn't drop less than 30lbs. at idle.

Last edited by Labratt; 04/20/12 01:03 PM.
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: ZIPPY] #1218561
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Quote:

If by "block mod" you mean smoothing out the hard 90 degree turn the oil makes right after entering the block, I would say definitely do that. It is a 10 minute deal and costs nothing if you already have the tools.

I don't think increasing the oil pickup to 1/2 is necessary, but it does not do any harm unless the procedure is messed up. At that point it does a whole bunch of harm I would never do it to one that looked thin to begin with. So if there are any second thoughts, don't do it



1) Smooth the turn/intersection
2) Using a milling machine to do the 1/2 NPT is safer/better than by hand. It allows moving the centerline ~0.050" to keep more meat on the boss.
3) You can use a pickup with the 3/8 NPT thread welded to a larger tube for some of the 1/2 NPT benefit without enlarging the block boss.

FWIW, all my big blocks have the 1/2 NPT mod and the enlarged oil passages to the mains.


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: Labratt] #1218562
04/20/12 12:54 PM
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Randy I forgot I posted this a long time ago, but here is an example of some of the work in the area you were asking about, both the pump and the block.

It will help the oil flow slightly and costs nothing but some time, as long as you have the tools

http://www.moparts.org/Tech/Archive/bb/51.html

Definitely have your guy doing the work (or yourself) ream out the passage between the galley and the mains too, to make the passage the same size all the way through it.
A good reamer size to use is in Chuck Senatore's book.

It's probably worth considering reaming the hole to #4 slightly larger than the rest, because the valvetrain robs that journal of oil......I don't know anyone who does that with every build, but it is something to think about....

Really don't think you "have to" do any of this... truthfully you could leave it alone but these kind of detailed changes are nice improvements to make and cheap insurance.

My 400 is tapped to 1/2" NPTF and I did it myself at home, it is not horribly bad to do by hand if a person uses a tapered reamer before tapping the hole. Lacking the tapered reamer, the force required to turn the tap is much higher which creates a greater chance of breaking the iron.


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: ZIPPY] #1218563
04/20/12 01:13 PM
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There's a statement up the page that is just plain WRONG.

Liquid flowing in a tube is NOT absolutely limited by the smallest hole it has to go through.

Pressure at one end of a system is converted into flow according to Bernoulli's equation. Flow restriction in the pipe is due to friction between pipe wall and the liquid. This friction decreases the fluid's available energy as it goes along the pipe.

When the fluid goes through a restriction some of the energy that is in the form of pressure turns into kinetic energy to speed up the liquid as it flows past the restriction. In the restriction, where the fluid is speeded up, the fluid will have less pressure. This is also called the Venturi effect or Bernoulli effect. This is what "pulls" gasoline into the carb airstream through the boosters and jets.

As the liquid passes the restriction it slows down and the kinetic energy turns into pressure energy again.

The downside to this speeding up and slowing down is that some energy is lost turning the pressure into velocity and then back again. So there is less available energy to push the fluid through the line. The restriction slows flow because it wastes the fluid's energy. It is NOT because it is an absolute limiter of flow.

R.

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: dogdays] #1218564
04/20/12 03:35 PM
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And the higher velocity will increase friction (resulting in energy loss) in the smaller section. And as I recall, that loss is proportional to the square of the velocity, so it really kills things... f L/D V^2/2g

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: 440Jim] #1218565
04/20/12 06:17 PM
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Now we are talkin A lot has to do with the len of the restriction, If its short there is not much change in flow volume, the larger pick up 1/2 from 3/8 will flow a lot more oil than ya think, If you need that much flow is another story, Hey Mike... ... can you define suck for me..

Re: 3/8" to 1/2" OIL PICK-UP TUBE...AND BLOCK MOD? [Re: emarine01] #1218566
04/21/12 01:43 AM
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