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Hard starting when motor is hot #120721 09/14/08 06:58 PM 09/14/08 06:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma 7 71valiant OP enthusiast
71valiant OP enthusiast 7 Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma	I built this 360 awhile back. When its cold, it fires right off. Once you get it hot and try and restart it. It acts like it doesnt wanna crank over. It kinda kicks back alittle too. It runs excellent besides this. The timing is set to 23 initial and 38 at 2500rpm. Much thanks

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: 71valiant] #120722 09/14/08 08:23 PM 09/14/08 08:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,167 ERIE PA home of the RENCH MOB mike_vango super stock
mike_vango super stock Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 1,167 ERIE PA home of the RENCH MOB	do you have the old style starter and headers?

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: 71valiant] #120723 09/14/08 08:25 PM 09/14/08 08:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,378 Rancho Cordova, CA Exit1965 master
Exit1965 master Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,378 Rancho Cordova, CA	If the battery cables are old, they could be the culprit. I had the same problem on my car, except there was no kickback, just very laborous cranking when it was hot. Put some 2 gauge cables on from Autozone (both for under $20) and now it spins over very fast at any temp.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: 71valiant] #120724 09/14/08 09:18 PM 09/14/08 09:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: The timing is set to 23 initial Try a ignition kill when you start or hook up a timing retard (like one sold by MSD) and switched on (retard mode to 10-12 btdc) whenever the starter is engaged. Before you change try this out by: starting the car Let it warm up. retard timing to about 12 initial. shut car off wait Start car. If this works you know it is your timing and you need to either retard it and recurve put a timing retard when you start the car or a ignition kill Last edited by HealthServices; 09/14/08 11:06 PM.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: HealthServices] #120725 09/14/08 09:42 PM 09/14/08 09:42 PM
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,117 Haslett, MI 7DRRunner master
7DRRunner master Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,117 Haslett, MI	ruled out vapor lock ? "Good luck on your project." 1970 Road Runner "Accellertii Incredibus"

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: Exit1965] #120726 09/14/08 10:30 PM 09/14/08 10:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,080 Niles , Ohio T therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah.
therocks oh wait.but hey.lets see.oh yeah. T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 21,080 Niles , Ohio	23 sounds like a bit too much initial.I try and run 10 to 15 with 36 all in.Rocky Last edited by therocks; 09/14/08 10:31 PM. Chrysler Firepower

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: therocks] #120727 09/14/08 11:13 PM 09/14/08 11:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	YES what they said. Ground the coil wire & crank it you'll know right away. If your timing is where you want it I would add an ign kill switch & get it cranking then switch on the ign. Worked for us on our stock car when it was hot. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: HealthServices] #120728 09/14/08 11:44 PM 09/14/08 11:44 PM
Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,378 Rancho Cordova, CA Exit1965 master
Exit1965 master Joined: Jul 2003 Posts: 3,378 Rancho Cordova, CA	FYI I'm running at 22-23 initial as well and it starts fine when hot. Perhaps the OP getting kickback is a sign that it's an ignition issue as opposed to just battery cables not carrying the juice? Last edited by Exit1965; 09/14/08 11:47 PM.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: Exit1965] #120729 09/15/08 12:20 AM 09/15/08 12:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: FYI I'm running at 22-23 initial as well and it starts fine when hot. Perhaps the OP getting kickback is a sign that it's an ignition issue (As in ignition timing?) as opposed to just battery cables not carrying the juice? So if we just pull the coil wire (ignition kill) when it is hot. And it does not crank good still, it means there is most likely a problem with the starter itself or the wiring. But if it cranks over well, then it means we maybe able to get away with ignition kill until the motor turns over, then flip on. Or retard the initial timing, and recurve to get best performance Or use a ignition retard switch. Or use a killer high dollar starter. (Which will die in time due to the high initial timing) To find out if it will start hot with 10-12 initial I recommend retard the initial to 10-12 and trying to start it at that setting hot. Now if the motor does not crank hot Then I would recomend you look more in depth on the wires and the starter. Because only now will you have to spend money if the cables are too small or the starter is too weak, etc. Allen Here's a novel idea, let's not throw a bunch of parts at the car hoping it will fix the problem and instead spend a little time diagnosing it first. Life was a little easier when I was just a wrench.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: Exit1965] #120730 09/15/08 01:05 AM 09/15/08 01:05 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal HealthServices Why would you even post that?
HealthServices Why would you even post that? Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 7,759 So Cal	Quote: FYI I'm running at 22-23 initial as well and it starts fine when hot. Perhaps the OP getting kickback is a sign that it's an ignition issue as opposed to just battery cables not carrying the juice? Sorry did not want to appear like I was attacking you. I just want to exhaust the free checks that do not involve money first. I assume you have a header on your car as well, maybe designed a little better than mine and it does not heat the starter as much when it gets hot. My Starter will start my 440 as well with timing, hot. But this car also kills starters (with it's header design) and I have notice that when the initial timing is not as high or if I use a kill switch, the starter will live a whole lot longer. I'm not a fan of replacing starters with headers or getting anywhere near the thing if I don't have to.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: mike_vango] #120731 09/15/08 05:06 AM 09/15/08 05:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma 7 71valiant OP enthusiast
71valiant OP enthusiast 7 Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma	Quote: do you have the old style starter and headers? Yes big old starter and headers. Dont let anyone tell you it wont go in! It was a very tight fit though.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: Exit1965] #120732 09/15/08 05:07 AM 09/15/08 05:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma 7 71valiant OP enthusiast
71valiant OP enthusiast 7 Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma	Quote: If the battery cables are old, they could be the culprit. I had the same problem on my car, except there was no kickback, just very laborous cranking when it was hot. Put some 2 gauge cables on from Autozone (both for under $20) and now it spins over very fast at any temp. Thanks I will try that.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: HealthServices] #120733 09/15/08 05:10 AM 09/15/08 05:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma 7 71valiant OP enthusiast
71valiant OP enthusiast 7 Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 375 NE Oklahoma	Quote: Quote: The timing is set to 23 initial Try a ignition kill when you start or hook up a timing retard (like one sold by MSD) and switched on (retard mode to 10-12 btdc) whenever the starter is engaged. Before you change try this out by: starting the car Let it warm up. retard timing to about 12 initial. shut car off wait Start car. If this works you know it is your timing and you need to either retard it and recurve put a timing retard when you start the car or a ignition kill See I've been thinking it was timing all along. Its got a pretty healthy cam in it for having stock pistons. So it likes all that timing. I'll try retarding it and see how it restarts. Thanks

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: 71valiant] #120734 09/15/08 01:18 PM 09/15/08 01:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,270 Missouri M MY340 master
MY340 master M Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 5,270 Missouri	Quote: Quote: do you have the old style starter and headers? Yes big old starter and headers. Dont let anyone tell you it wont go in! It was a very tight fit though. You need a mini-starter as you'll always have this problem with the old fullsize starter and headers. Plus it won't last long either. Oh and I ran 24 degrees of intial timing on my 508 cammed 340 Duster. It cranked over fine hot or cold with the ministarter. been there done that..... 1970 FE5 Duster 360/904/3.91's SOLD 1973 TB3 SpaceDuster 340/4spd/4.10's SOLD Moparless for now but when the opportunity is right I'll have another one.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: MY340] #120735 09/15/08 01:28 PM 09/15/08 01:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 708 Mechanic Falls, Maine 4 4BBodies mopar addict
4BBodies mopar addict 4 Joined: Oct 2005 Posts: 708 Mechanic Falls, Maine	Jury rig a temporary sheetmetal "shield" between the starter and headers. I am willing to bet that you have heat soak at the starter. If it starts hot with the shield, you will know for sure, and a shield isn't hard to make.

Re: Hard starting when motor is hot [Re: 71valiant] #120736 09/15/08 01:41 PM 09/15/08 01:41 PM
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	So twenty three of initial is fine if you have a big enough cam that will bleed off pressure while cranking. My race car is locked down at 35 But I have 306 advertised and 272 at .050 duration. I would star by putting your total timing back to 34 or 35 degrees thats all thats nessesary on a mopar. If its running better with that much timing its probably to rich on the carb and you are needing sooner ignition to get the fuel burnt . That will take your initial down 3 or 4 degrees then see how it starts when hot. The increased initial timing is to give a better signal to the carb when you have large overlap cams. Once you get the timing where the car starts while hot then adjust the carb. www.4secondsflat.com has a tuneup guide that explains all this and how ignition and fuel curves effect each other

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