Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1190311
03/05/12 11:12 AM
03/05/12 11:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
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Posts: 5,405
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
What did the trans-am and NASCAR guys run bak in the day?
Herein lies some of the problem; These two venues were considered contact sports, therefore increasingly heavy duty parts became required to allow the cars to finish races. Since these were the most practical handling applications of the era, many assume duplicating their configurations are the best means of skinning the cat these days and similarly install heavy duty parts where they may not necessarily be required. Nascar guys also use 3/4 and 1 ton full floater truck rear ends with oil coolers. That's probably overkill for a street app as well.
Quote:
It may have been in one of the above posts, but here goes: Are the C body tie rod ends the same size as the A, B and E cars? If not, I guess to use the 11/16" units, you'd need 2 inners, 2 outers along with the sleeves? Is the taper in the center link and lower ball joints are the same degree as the other cars?
Same size in what regard? The threaded shank on small units standard tie rods is 9/16, the large C body units are 11/16. So yes, to covnert you need two inners, two outers, and two adjusting sleeves. The taper fit is identical betwen the two sizes.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: jcc]
#1190312
03/05/12 01:25 PM
03/05/12 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,558 So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,558
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
What did the trans-am and NASCAR guys run bak in the day?
Nascar back in the day in a 4,000lb? cars at 200mph on a 31Deg banking for 500 miles in wheel to wheel competition with a 100,000 spectators behind a fence 20? feet away ran I believe 3/4" TR
Those car were 4200 lbs. And ran 200 mph for 500-600 miles. Had to take hits and rubs against other cars and objects. On top of that, a lot of the stuff was overbuilt.
The tie rods were massive. Do not copy these. It makes no sense to.
Tie rod was pn 2535126 Rt, and 2535127 Lt. Stock Rt tube 9 3/4" (not pictured) was 2535130. You probably could cross reference those p/n's. I'm sure off of some big commercial truck.
The tube pictured below is probably fabricated Petty Engineering tube.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1190313
03/05/12 08:28 PM
03/05/12 08:28 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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At some point, we get to the weakest link. Since the tie rod's tapered stud still has to fit into the steering arms and centerlink, at what point does that become the failure point? Did the NASCAR boys run stock centerlinks and steering arms? Or where they upgraded to fit the possibly larger tapered stud on the HD parts?
I dunno
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: Supercuda]
#1190315
03/06/12 12:31 AM
03/06/12 12:31 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10,030 Wisconsin
Aero426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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Quote:
Did the NASCAR boys run stock centerlinks and steering arms? Or where they upgraded to fit the possibly larger tapered stud on the HD parts?
To my knowledge, the Grand National suspension parts are all special purpose items not related to production.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: Aero426]
#1190316
03/06/12 12:38 AM
03/06/12 12:38 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
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Nebraska
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Im probably gonna get some of these just for insurance against that crack or pothole at 150+.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: NV69B7RR]
#1190317
03/06/12 02:43 AM
03/06/12 02:43 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131 Thigh-Gap Junction
@#$%&*!
New user name, Same old jerk!
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New user name, Same old jerk!
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
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Bigger parts are almost always stronger, if that's needed. When it comes to deflection, actual axial deflections would be microscopic and of no consequence. If the sleeve 'bows out' it's toast because it introduces a bending stress in addition to the compressive stress, greatly increasing the likelyhood of failure. If you want to go for the solid, billet, forged, heat treated, gold plated HD sleeves that's fine but it's long been my contention that the factory sleeves are a designed-in failure point and FAILURE MODE. Imagine you're flying down the road and come upon the pothole from hell and something is going to fail. If you snap off a rod end or stud on the idler or pitman your steering control is mostly or completely gone. Having a weak point made of a ductile material, like the tie rod sleeve is, you're going to get a badly toed-out situation instead of a front wheel doing whatever it wants.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: @#$%&*!]
#1190318
03/06/12 06:52 AM
03/06/12 06:52 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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Quote:
Bigger parts are almost always stronger, if that's needed. When it comes to deflection, actual axial deflections would be microscopic and of no consequence. If the sleeve 'bows out' it's toast because it introduces a bending stress in addition to the compressive stress, greatly increasing the likelyhood of failure. If you want to go for the solid, billet, forged, heat treated, gold plated HD sleeves that's fine but it's long been my contention that the factory sleeves are a designed-in failure point and FAILURE MODE. Imagine you're flying down the road and come upon the pothole from hell and something is going to fail. If you snap off a rod end or stud on the idler or pitman your steering control is mostly or completely gone. Having a weak point made of a ductile material, like the tie rod sleeve is, you're going to get a badly toed-out situation instead of a front wheel doing whatever it wants.
THIS... i think is a very good point.
As for the 1970 Nascar question. That stuff is always fun to know, and occasionally can still provide some answers to modern questions, but a LOT has changed in 40 years. Consider the Nascar hemi rods they used back then... This was 'serious' stuff! with 1/2" rod bolts... Run the idea ov using 1/2" rod bolts by the Engine Masters guys today and see how long it takes for the laughing to subside...
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#1190319
03/06/12 08:56 PM
03/06/12 08:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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I kinda look at the Engine Masters engines as purpose built, short durability win at all costs (limited by what you can afford) efforts. Not sure I'd want to put one in the wife's ride.
That said, the point about the sleeve being a failure point is a good one to consider.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: Supercuda]
#1190320
03/06/12 09:43 PM
03/06/12 09:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,862 the frozen wastes...
Pale_Roader
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Swears too much
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Quote:
I kinda look at the Engine Masters engines as purpose built, short durability win at all costs (limited by what you can afford) efforts. Not sure I'd want to put one in the wife's ride.
That said, the point about the sleeve being a failure point is a good one to consider.
Still, no one, and i mean NO ONE would even consider such a massive connecting rod today. People in the know wont even use 6-pack rods anymore. There is no need. 40 years ago bigger was the only way to mean stronger, now we have better design, better technology, better metals, and have come to realize that while mass is good for strength in engine internals, light weight is worth more in terms ov reliability.
Anyways, this is nothing new to anyone here. Those 3/4" tie rods are insane.
Im still gonna buy the fancy ones, because they come with the full kit, but now theres that small pocket ov worry in the back ov my head...
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: NV69B7RR]
#2242991
01/28/17 08:02 PM
01/28/17 08:02 PM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
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I seem to remember one of the old Direct Connection chassis books giving some details on the tierods and other suspension parts.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: Pale_Roader]
#2244388
01/31/17 12:06 AM
01/31/17 12:06 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 259 n.c.
geo.
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[quote] Bigger parts are almost always stronger, if that's needed. When it comes to deflection, actual axial deflections would be microscopic and of no consequence. If the sleeve 'bows out' it's toast because it introduces a bending stress in addition to the compressive stress, greatly increasing the likelyhood of failure. If you want to go for the solid, billet, forged, heat treated, gold plated HD sleeves that's fine but it's long been my contention that the factory sleeves are a designed-in failure point and FAILURE MODE. Imagine you're flying down the road and come upon the pothole from hell and something is going to fail. If you snap off a rod end or stud on the idler or pitman your steering control is mostly or completely gone. Having a weak point made of a ductile material, like the tie rod sleeve is, you're going to get a badly toed-out situation instead of a front wheel doing whatever it wants. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Twocents.gif" alt="" /> THIS... i think is a very good point. Know this is an old post, but I agree with this also. Many years ago I read something by Hal Baer along the same lines. He cautioned that boxing the control arms and replacing the tie rod sleeves on a mustang made it much more likely to cause frame damage when bumping a curb, or hitting a pot-hole. Now this was on a ford, so maybe not applicable
Last edited by geo.; 01/31/17 12:10 AM.
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Re: 11/16 tie rod upgrade, what are the benefits?
[Re: geo.]
#2244660
01/31/17 01:48 PM
01/31/17 01:48 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 23,295 Here
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Posts: 23,295
Here
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Might add to this ancient, but insightful thread, well respected member "AndyF" noted a measured reduction in deflection(?) with the larger TR's of 22%, however what is not mentioned, 22% of what, because if we are talking on cars with a measured say .125" toe in, +- 1/16", .002" reduction for example, is not something members here will ever need to be concerned with.
" All sorts of things can happen when you are open to new Ideas" Inventor of Kevlar
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