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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: dusturbd340W5]
#1184244
02/23/12 09:37 PM
02/23/12 09:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616
Kissimmee Fl.
dusturbd340W5
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,616
Kissimmee Fl.
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I have also seen more that 1 person post there big dollar BB builds here that didn't run as well as my little 416
70 duster full chassis super pro 416 CNC Indybrock heads 727 w/brake
best so far 1.212 60 6.219 in 1/8 at 110.88 9.768 at 137.81 1/4
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: AndyF]
#1184246
02/23/12 11:10 PM
02/23/12 11:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
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To do reman, you need 1000 viable cores per year for 3 years, anything less is a waste of time. 360LA engines are out. You aren't going to get there with 360LA. Next? 5.9 magnum. When the OE ran out of 5.9 engines, MP switched to .020 over reman with magnum RT heads and rated at 390HP. All new internals purchased at considerably higher prices than the OE, low volume machining, and resulting higher MSRP....but still very popular. So popular, that backorders piled up. At one point there was an 8 month wait. Why? 4 out of 5 stock 5.9 blocks went to scrap because they were either cracked, overheated just shy of melting, or were too thin to go .020 over. Core viability. Time to move on. Reman does not work, the end  There is absolutely nothing deceptive about my statements re: Gen 3 hemi. 6.1 or 5.7 fits in any car or truck that originally came with a 318, period. If you're too cheap to buy headers, find some stock manifolds that will fit, cut and weld 6.1 tubular manifolds until they will work, or use Hooker headers instead of TTI. If you're too cheap to buy a computer, use a megasquirt, solder it together yourself at the kitchen table. If you're too cheap to buy two new carbs to put on an Edelbrock dual quad manifold, do like I did, buy a pair off ebay and rebuild them. If you're too cheap to buy motor mounts, buy the mounting plates off of ebay and weld them up yourself. Money can be saved in 1000 places and the end result can still be great. Still not reasonable enough? Then don't do it....but don't complain Gen 3 costs a fortune when you aren't willing to homebrew anything. Those suggesting cams and compression are on the right track...but please try to consider the end result when a customer puts an 11.5:1, 260 @ .050, .650 lift 360 engine into his loaded b body with air conditioning, power brakes, a stock torque converter, a 600cfm carb, stock exhaust manifolds, 3.23 gears, puts 87 octane gas in it, and uses a Wal Mart motor oil with a Quaker State filter. Do you really think he will be happy with it? Do you think he has any clue how to tune it? How long do you think it will last in that application? Just because you and I know better doesn't mean everyone else does. I know how to be cheap. I have maybe 5k into my 451 low deck, it has a very nicely machined 1972 engine block and a reworked 1969 crankshaft in it, as well as many other used/reworked parts. It also has 10.75:1, and .630 lift. I have fun with it, I think 123mph is fairly respectable for what it is, and having built it myself at home I take some pride in it. I also think it would be the most miserable crate engine you ever saw.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1184247
02/24/12 02:13 AM
02/24/12 02:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
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Quote:
To do reman, you need 1000 viable cores per year for 3 years, anything less is a waste of time. 360LA engines are out. You aren't going to get there with 360LA.
Next? 5.9 magnum. When the OE ran out of 5.9 engines, MP switched to .020 over reman with magnum RT heads and rated at 390HP. All new internals purchased at considerably higher prices than the OE, low volume machining, and resulting higher MSRP....but still very popular.
So popular, that backorders piled up. At one point there was an 8 month wait. Why? 4 out of 5 stock 5.9 blocks went to scrap because they were either cracked, overheated just shy of melting, or were too thin to go .020 over.
Core viability. Time to move on.
Reman does not work, the end ...
Thanks for the explanation. Makes since. So Mopar Reman. Div. doesn't even sell stocker roller 360 long/short blocks?
Zippy, what is the difference in the "breeding stock" from a core magnum block to the reman plant door as compared to a core the guy buys one out of the junkyard or swap meet.
I've got some assumptions on the differences, but I'd rather hear it from someone that is closer to the process.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 02/24/12 03:39 AM.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1184248
02/24/12 03:04 AM
02/24/12 03:04 AM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
A57_RT
Parts Problem
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Parts Problem
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 323
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Mixed thoughts on the prices but it is what it is. I find it odd we are all mopar guys and the constant "Well I could have a BB for that" gets a bit old.
Has some ever thought its a simple choice/preference to build and run small block strokers vs BBs or Hemis?
Does the 440 guy want a hemi even if the money is there, not all....
Would the 440 guy be thrilled with enough added stroke to end up with a 512 or 528 inch motor, yes, however then you have to build around the bigger stroke, heads, ect and it would all add up.
If your 528 could make 1.5 per thats almost 800hp to build around, I dont know if a stock 440 block could take that power level so here again build to the max power output. So more money.
Then is your trans up to it? Your rear...to take 800 hp and a boatload of tq? Chassis?
Yes these are all raw figures but weather a simple 600hp small block or a 800hp BB stroker, put in all the factors and its not cheap either way.
For most a high torque small block with a 4 inch or more stroke is more then enough for a a body, e body and even f body cars, and some at 1/2 inch more stroke then a std 440, but still a 440 inch motor off a 4.250 or so arm says alot in the tq dept. Gotta have the trans/rear to match it as well.
Sorry for the rant and a bit off topic but so many just dont understand its a choice to run a small block vs a BB, its not like they only sell 500 BB build cards a year and only the few get BB motors.
My point is at the end of the day, if a guy wants to dump 10. 15, 20 in a big inch small block, its his cash and choice to be different.
Really I dont see too many ford or chevy guys complain over the cost of there parts, not so much as they are way cheaper but its they are dedicated to there brand.
If running a mopar causes so much pizz and moaning over costs, cash in and build a cheaper chevy/ford.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: viperblue72]
#1184249
02/24/12 10:12 AM
02/24/12 10:12 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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The cost of building a 5.9 OE for the factory was about $1,100 in 2010. That is the approximate figure that we used for all paperwork when I was a shipper at PRTAP (B van plant). That is why the original crate motors were affordable.
The average car guy only needs a crate motor to be happy with his ride. Many bought the more agressive crate 5.9 engines and detuned them. Not every one is a hard core racer that needs, wants, or even knows what to do with more power. The original crate motors were a bargain at $2-3,000. That was 12 years ago or more, get over it, the world has changed again.
Zippy is correct in his thoughts and observations. The new generation of hemi is the crate motor to look at now from a cost perspective for those who don't have 20 to 40 years of oldschool experience and thinking.
Mopar Performance is trying to provide what it thinks the market is asking for. Unfortunately, that is what it costs. Is your time, manpower, marketing, transportation, shop cost, etc. free?
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: racealittle]
#1184250
02/24/12 12:36 PM
02/24/12 12:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
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Not 100% sure on "pure" reman, last time I talked applications with someone in that group they did sell
1990-ish era la engines but that was two years ago.
Demand differences beween reman and performance crate engines...under the right conditions: low price, economy is not in the toilet, folks aren't scared off by new technology, gas isn't 5 bucks a gallon and so on.....are pretty dramatic.
Let's say I need a 5.9 core to build up. I might find a wrecked 2002 truck in a yard around here, though most yard vehicles are newer. I can see whether it has oil and coolant in it. I can see if it has been hit in the front.
The big volume salvage yards will sell everything they can get their hands on, whether it has been burned in a fire, it has oil or coolant or not, it has been hit really hard in the front, and so on. They don't care, they just want to get paid. Given the nature of their business, I can't blame them. Can't really control what comes in the door at the reman facility.
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1184251
02/24/12 02:33 PM
02/24/12 02:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 155
Tulsa oklahoma USA
2734bbl
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 155
Tulsa oklahoma USA
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I work at an all Chrysler/ Jeep / Dodge salvage yard I can tell 3.9/5.2/5.9 Magnum motors are getting hard to find and one under 100K is going to be expensive and the demand is growing everyday.
A lot of times these vehicles are hit in the front (duh) and the cooling is bad or the wiring is smashed. So as Zippy stated it's sometimes tough to determine the health status(cylinder head issues mostly) of the engine but I sell every one of them that comes through the door and our core buyers dont haggle on price they just take them all on site.
As a side I think 10K is alot of money for a "crate motor" but at least for us Mopar guys other than sourcing your own parts and taking them to a builder it may be the only way.
Last edited by 2734bbl; 02/24/12 02:45 PM.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: ZIPPY]
#1184252
02/24/12 03:27 PM
02/24/12 03:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
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Quote:
Not 100% sure on "pure" reman, last time I talked applications with someone in that group they did sell
1990-ish era la engines but that was two years ago.
Demand differences beween reman and performance crate engines...under the right conditions: low price, economy is not in the toilet, folks aren't scared off by new technology, gas isn't 5 bucks a gallon and so on.....are pretty dramatic.
Let's say I need a 5.9 core to build up. I might find a wrecked 2002 truck in a yard around here, though most yard vehicles are newer. I can see whether it has oil and coolant in it. I can see if it has been hit in the front.
The big volume salvage yards will sell everything they can get their hands on, whether it has been burned in a fire, it has oil or coolant or not, it has been hit really hard in the front, and so on. They don't care, they just want to get paid. Given the nature of their business, I can't blame them. Can't really control what comes in the door at the reman facility.
That's sort of what I assumed. The bulk core business gets a lot of junk to weed through.
Although, Jasper obviously has a strong reman program in general. And I know they compete heavily with OE Remans for independent repair shop business. Wonder if Jasper have the same magnum 360 core issues.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: 2734bbl]
#1184253
02/24/12 03:31 PM
02/24/12 03:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,451
So Cal
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Quote:
I work at an all Chrysler/ Jeep / Dodge salvage yard I can tell 3.9/5.2/5.9 Magnum motors are getting hard to find and one under 100K is going to be expensive and the demand is growing everyday.
A lot of times these vehicles are hit in the front (duh) and the cooling is bad or the wiring is smashed. So as Zippy stated it's sometimes tough to determine the health status(cylinder head issues mostly) of the engine but I sell every one of them that comes through the door and our core buyers dont haggle on price they just take them all on site.
As a side I think 10K is alot of money for a "crate motor" but at least for us Mopar guys other than sourcing your own parts and taking them to a builder it may be the only way.
Interesting info directly from that side of the business. Thank you.
Do you think the cly head issues wipe out a lot of potential 360 magnum cores?
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1184254
02/24/12 04:37 PM
02/24/12 04:37 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 155
Tulsa oklahoma USA
2734bbl
member
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member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 155
Tulsa oklahoma USA
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5.2 and 5.9 have the same head. There are a lot more 5.2 than 5.9 motors. Me personally Ive had 12-15 vehicles with 5.2/5.9 motors and as yet not had one have a prob with the heads.I have a friend that works at a machine shop who claims to see it frequently. I have however, had to fix the plenum gaskets on 5 or 6 and sometimes I think this is an useen factor to failure.When it goes bad it sucks oil out of the valley and into the intake manifold and is sometimes hard to detect by people who don't know what to look for. People just run them low or out of oil and burn them up, or when the gasket goes bad they run lean and detonate and people continue to drive them in disrepair.  3.9L dont seem to suffer these problems as much.
Last edited by 2734bbl; 02/24/12 04:44 PM.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: 2734bbl]
#1184257
02/24/12 08:19 PM
02/24/12 08:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,481
Mesa, AZ
Pat_Whalen
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,481
Mesa, AZ
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Quote:
Me personally Ive had 12-15 vehicles with 5.2/5.9 motors and as yet not had one have a prob with the heads.
I can personally guarantee you that at least one of, if not more than one, your 12-15 5.2/5.9 engines had a crack between exhaust seats  It is a very well known problem when looking for a viable core. It's also something that you most likely won't notice on a used engine until you're looking for a set of OE heads that can magnaflux and not be cracked.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: Pat_Whalen]
#1184258
02/24/12 10:14 PM
02/24/12 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,212
Canton, Ohio
Crazy68Dart
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,212
Canton, Ohio
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Whatever parts are involved, brand new, etc. most of the types that are going to go out and buy a crate motor, be it no time, convenience, no skills, etc, are going to look at this and scratch their head. Given the parts I understand *why* it is 10k, but it is not good for the Mopar brand. You can go get a bowtie or blue oval motor that makes the same power for approx half the cost. The majority of people don't necessarily care that it is a brand new block and all new parts. If it runs good and lasts 400 hp is 400 hp to most people.
383, Hemi 4-Speed, AlterKtion, D60
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: Crazy68Dart]
#1184259
02/24/12 11:37 PM
02/24/12 11:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,974
new jersey usa
11secdart
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 4,974
new jersey usa
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Wow! my 360 crate short block was around $13-1500 ( I wish they were still available) and Yes It had to come apart before use.
68 Dart 410 / 904
92 D150 original owner
21 Ram 1500 Quad Cab, Big Horn , Hemi ,4x4
23 Audi Q5
16 Honda HRV
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: beezer]
#1184261
02/25/12 03:46 AM
02/25/12 03:46 AM
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Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,141
junction city oregon
viperblue72
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,141
junction city oregon
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My only point to this thread was that from a marketing standpoint we all know this engine program is gonna choke. I can also put a 10k paint job on a Geo metro. And I get a nice paint job. But what's the point? 
Last edited by viperblue72; 02/25/12 03:48 AM.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: viperblue72]
#1184262
02/25/12 11:35 AM
02/25/12 11:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
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Quote:
My only point to this thread was that from a marketing standpoint we all know this engine program is gonna choke.
I can also put a 10k paint job on a Geo metro. And I get a nice paint job. But what's the point?
Point taken.
But it was still a good read......thanks to a couple you youse guys for " factory direct " insights.
I have the new Competition Products catalog in my reading room and noticed a " claimed " 440 horse 408 for just south of 7 k in there.
I bet it has parts in it that come from a place I try not to buy parts from though........I would bet the house on that.
I can see the value of the factory offerings........the quality or parts and build is beyond what you'll get in 99.9837521 % of the others.
So it is pricey , but you do get what you pay for.
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Re: $10,000 360 crate motor. really mp?
[Re: viperblue72]
#1184263
02/25/12 01:10 PM
02/25/12 01:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,838
S.E. Michigan
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They have been for sale for 6 years.
I'm no expert but wasn't the choke point circa 2008?
Ya know, I've been talking to a 440 small block customer off and on for a few weeks, he bought it to put in his '65 Dart. He's got it home and has been rounding up the other pieces he needs.
Yep, he needs other parts...even though he is replacing a 273 he still needs to spend extra. He's buying TTI headers that cost exactly the same as headers for Gen 3 hemi. He's buying new motor mounts that cost the same as Gen 3 hemi conversion mounts. He needs a new flexplate, it costs the same, and so on.
With the 6000+ he could have saved by buying a 6.1 Hemi instead, I am pretty sure he could have bought a standalone computer, a fuel pump, a cable throttle body, and had a few thousand left over.
He's street driving only with normal radial tires, he isn't a racer. He wants it to hold up, and sound cool. He's not interested in scrounging up a used block and having it machined. He is a true median crate engine customer.
Does anyone think the big difference in torque between stroked LA and stock Gen 3 will matter much in his application? Will he even use the extra power for anything but smoke shows?
When gas is $6 a gallon, wouldn't he be better off with fuel injection? Injectors, rails, all the sensors, and the whole engine wiring harness comes already installed on the 6.1, use whatever pcm you want.
If the smooth idle turns him off, he can stab in a Comp 273 cam and it will idle about like a 340 with a .484 cam, and there's the cool sound. He can tune for the bigger cam with the aftermarket standalone computer.
He will still have thousands left over.
I explained all that to him, he did consider the Gen 3 but said he did not want to learn fuel injection. He also realized there was a cost associated with that being that the factory hadn't made a small block in 10 years. He wanted what he wanted, Mopar had it, he bought it.
Ain't that the way it is supposed to work?
Would it be better to not sell it at all, rather than give him the choice?
Good discussion but very time consuming LOL....glad I can type fast...
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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you dont need all that for 400hp but mine was pushing close to 650 hp and if I am going to do something I want the BEST that I can afford.
