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My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) #1171633
02/04/12 11:15 AM
02/04/12 11:15 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Well, hopefully it will be a budget build. I'm completely new to this (engine building) as well as Mopars in general and kind of stumbling my way through with help from members from Moparts as well as others. I've decided to document all the ups and downs and ins n' outs of my first engine build so those of you thinking about doing this may avoid the mistakes I have, and will, make. The goal is to end up with a decent, inexpensive, reliable street motor and slowly rebuild the engine that's in the car now the way I want it. A street beast.

Current engine


While the current 440 (stock '66 from an imperial or similar) runs ok (albeit very tired) it uses a remarkable amount of oil; 1 qt. per 200 miles. I tried changing the valve seals and intake gaskets, both of which were doing nothing to contain oil in the engine. No difference whatsoever. Must be the rings I figured.


So the next plan was to try to rebuild the engine. Or more accurately, have the engine rebuilt on a budget by a local builder. He assured me that I could get mine running like new for around $3000-$3500, but that would be a basically stock 440. The good news is that he had a dyno and he would break it in and dyno it for me for an additional fee. This was music to my ears as hearing all the horror stories about engine break-in terrified me.

Then, one day I was looking through Craigslist and found an ad for a "fresh" rebuilt 440 for sale nearby for $1800! Carb to pan! Wow, this is a miracle! When I went to look at it, the owner (for my purposes, I like to refer to him as the perpetrator) assured me that this was a 400hp drop-in-and-go affair. We struck a deal and loaded the beast into the back of my truck. I drove home giggling like a giddy school girl. Nice huh?




Since this is an attempted budget build, I will try to keep a running tally.

Spent so far $1800.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171634
02/04/12 11:17 AM
02/04/12 11:17 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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The next few days were the beginning of my enlightenment. First, I found no matter how smart you think you are, you are never too old to be fooled by a good salesman. And every cliche along the lines of "If it sounds too good to be true..." came rushing to the surface and smacked me in the face. In other words, with some help from members on Moparts, DC.com and others, I quickly learned that this motor was, at best, a good rebuilt bottom end with heads taken directly from the scrap heap and installed in haste as to feign a run-ready motor. Most of the valve train and hardware was scrap also. I tried calling the perpetrator to ask why he sold me a bill of goods but he did not answer his phone (shocker). As I dug deeper though, it was apparent that the bottom end was put together with care and seemed to be done well. After speaking to some of my more knowledgeable buddys, it seemed that while I may have been duped, I could still sell some parts off the motor and end up with a pretty nice short block with all new parts for less than the machine work alone would have cost on the original engine. And I would still have my running engine in case anything went wrong.


Spent so far (after selling spare parts) $1400.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171635
02/04/12 11:19 AM
02/04/12 11:19 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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It turned out the 906 heads were basically good for cores only.



There was way too much preload on the lifters because the valves were sunk way into the seats ("the heads have only one year on them" yeah right...). It probably wouldn't have even run the way it was.



There was a huge difference in the valve stem heights.



Good thing I took it apart. This big nut was sitting right there waiting to drop into the works and tear up my new motor.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171636
02/04/12 11:20 AM
02/04/12 11:20 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I took the engine almost completely apart and checked clearances, bolt torques and basically checked it all over. Everything checked out good.


I decided to degree the cam and double check all the specs. I fabricated a piston stop out of aluminum angle and a lifter extension for the dial indicator out of an old brake line and washer.





Here's the specs...


This is what I came up with:
Int open - 1* BTDC = 2* retarded
Int close - 41* ABDC = ON SPEC

Exh open - 54* BBDC = 2* retarded
Exh close - 2* BTDC = ON SPEC

Lobe centerline - Int 109* ATDC = ON SPEC
Lobe centerline - Exh 120* BTDC = 1* advanced

I decided with some trusted advice that it was close enough for my purposes. Though the crank sprocket has provisions for 4 degree advance or retard. I may do some more research to see if advancing the cam will be a benefit.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171637
02/04/12 11:21 AM
02/04/12 11:21 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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The main issue with this engine build, as I would eventually understand it, is that he used flat top pistons on a stock deck height block. The problem is that the pistons are .085" in the hole (below deck) at TDC and therefore can not take advantage of quench (getting the top of the piston to within .040" of the head surface, which creates turbulence (good burn) and allows the use of pump gas in a high compression engine.


The other issue is the cam. It's a good low end torque grind, but the spec calls for a minimum of 9.5:1 compression. I gathered all the info regarding combustion chamber volume on different heads, 906/516/452, and ran them through the compression ratio calculator. The 906 heads that were on the motor have 79cc heads, which will get me in the ballpark, but they were in need of a complete rebuild which would cost $600-$700 locally. This was above the price range of new cast iron Aeroheads which are rebuilt castings, but with the bigger valves. So, might as well do that huh? Well, the price on those heads had since gone up and to get them to me would be close to $1000! About the same price as 440 Source aluminum Stealth heads.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171638
02/04/12 11:23 AM
02/04/12 11:23 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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So, after some soul searching, yes, I decided that the Stealth heads would give me the best bang for the buck. I had to get new head bolts also. The bill with shipping was about $1150. A little pricey for a budget build, but I figured that it wasn't too bad considering what I was getting.






They are actually pretty nice for the money. Stainless steel valves, Comp valve locks. 130 lb. springs. Perfect for my cam.

They are advertised as having 80cc chambers, so that would put me on the money with the compression ratio (9.6:1)I was looking for if I used the .020" steel shim head gaskets I have hanging on my wall. And because the gaskets came with the car, they're free! Life is good!

Spent so far - $2250.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171639
02/04/12 11:24 AM
02/04/12 11:24 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Another innovative trick that was apparently left out of the engine building handbook is to use a shock washer in place of the correct cam bolt washer. I ordered the correct bolt & washer.

I'll say it again...good thing I took it apart



Spent so far $2448

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171640
02/04/12 11:26 AM
02/04/12 11:26 AM
Joined: Mar 2010
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Unfortunately, after looking closely at the rockers, it was apparent they were also scrap. I mean, the holes that the shaft goes through aren't even round anymore lol! There was about 1/8" slop. Really bad.


Fortunately I was able to scare up a really nice set of used ones from my buddy...FREE!! I like that price! It adds nothing to the tally!


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171641
02/04/12 12:02 PM
02/04/12 12:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,221
Branson, Mo.
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joedust451 Offline
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Good luck with it, I'd tell you what i have into my 406 SBC but you might cry, & thats with a brand new set of Dart iron eagles & roller rockers .


75 Duster, 451 10.87 @ 123.58 NA 97 Z28 6sp., 12.01 @ 115 on a 100 shot 71 Swinger. 360 magnum. 12.58 @ 105 78 cutlass, 469 BBC. 12.70 @ 108 on street tires. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2kqNmMfheU
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: joedust451] #1171642
02/04/12 12:15 PM
02/04/12 12:15 PM
Joined: Mar 2010
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:

Good luck with it, I'd tell you what i have into my 406 SBC but you might cry, & thats with a brand new set of Dart iron eagles & roller rockers .


I know, I was a Chevy guy for a long time. I'm quickly finding out that the words "buget" and "Mopar" can rarely be used in the same sentence...or zip code for that matter

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171643
02/04/12 12:27 PM
02/04/12 12:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
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Marion,Indiana
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Seth_Jones Offline
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The holes in the rockers are not round from the factory.The originals were probably fine.The place to look for wear is in the pushrod cups and where the rocker contacts the bottom of the shaft.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: Seth_Jones] #1171644
02/06/12 09:04 PM
02/06/12 09:04 PM
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Northern NJ
StukaJU87 Offline
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Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.


You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.


Scott

1969 Super Bee, 383/4 speed


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: StukaJU87] #1171645
02/06/12 09:21 PM
02/06/12 09:21 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I got my headers in the other day. Hedman Shortys. They look pretty nice though I'll have to strip and paint them with hi-temp paint



I bolted them to the heads to check the spark plug clearance as I've seen so many that make access to the plugs a nightmare. For the exception of one, there seems to be plenty of room compared to others I've seen. I called Hedman and asked if dimpling the one tube for clearance will affect anything. He said as long as it's not like half collapsed, it will be fine.






This one I may have to clearance a bit.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: StukaJU87] #1171646
02/06/12 09:24 PM
02/06/12 09:24 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:

Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.


You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.


Thanks. I sold those manifolds, but I've seen plenty in the ads here.

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171647
02/06/12 10:17 PM
02/06/12 10:17 PM
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Northern NJ
StukaJU87 Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Looks like your build is coming along though. Good for you.


You gonna be using those HP exhaust manifolds? Been trying to find a set local for my 440.


Thanks. I sold those manifolds, but I've seen plenty in the ads here.


No problem. I have seen them in the classifieds, but not seeing them in person and shipping those things seems like a drag.


Scott

1969 Super Bee, 383/4 speed


Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171648
02/07/12 10:25 PM
02/07/12 10:25 PM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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I mocked the head & header up to get a feel for how the left header will clear the steering box . They really do tuck under quite nicely.







At first I couldn't understand, being shortys, why they require a change to a mini starter, but now I see. It might be wise to get a heat shield.


Spent so far $2650

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171649
02/07/12 11:48 PM
02/07/12 11:48 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 352
Arizona
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69rrgrabber Offline
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Bob,

Can't wait to hear how the motor turns out with those heads and cam. Thinking of doing the same build. Don't feel too bad on getting duped, it has happens to us all at some point!

Good luck and keep us posted!

Carl


"It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar!" 1969 Charger R/T 440 1969 Road Runner 383 1970 Cuda 440
Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: 69rrgrabber] #1171650
02/08/12 12:36 AM
02/08/12 12:36 AM
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Out in Left Field, NY
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Quote:



Good luck and keep us posted!

Carl


I will, thanks!

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: bobs66440] #1171651
02/08/12 02:37 AM
02/08/12 02:37 AM
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His and Her 69's Offline
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I would like to see it with the trans and starter installed to see how close it really is!!!!
I think you are Fine on your plug clearance to the headers. I would leave them alone.
David

Re: My Budget 440 Build (Learning Experience) [Re: His and Her 69's] #1171652
02/08/12 07:25 AM
02/08/12 07:25 AM
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Quote:

I would like to see it with the trans and starter installed to see how close it really is!!!!
I think you are Fine on your plug clearance to the headers. I would leave them alone.
David


I was going to dimple just the one. Maybe I'll just use a boot?

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