Which lifters to use?
#1171378
02/03/12 08:22 PM
02/03/12 08:22 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 749
NY
Beep Beep
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OP
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I need some help trying to decide which setup to use on a street car. I am running a 496 cubic inch out of a 400 block. I am running 11:1 compression with hand ported 440 stealth heads. I am going to use harland sharp rockers. I will be using stock manifolds with 2.5 exhaust. Should I use hydraulic flat tappet, solid flat tappet, hydraulic roller or solid roller? Also which is more reliable?
Last edited by Beep Beep; 02/03/12 08:31 PM.
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: Beep Beep]
#1171379
02/03/12 09:17 PM
02/03/12 09:17 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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Hard to beat a hyd roller for all around power, no wear issues etc USE THE MOREL lifters NOT the Comp Cams versions--for sure if you get a flat tappet to live --it is a lot less $$$$$ and will make excellent power--solid roller takes more spring pressure--OK for drag but you really have to watch pressure on street units as the cycles add up quick and wear out lifter bearing axles fast---
Best all round choice if $$ is not an issue is a hyd roller--Power, good vacuum, quiet ( one turn preload on the Morels and its quiet as a mouse peeing on a ball of cotton)
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: ]
#1171380
02/03/12 09:57 PM
02/03/12 09:57 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,715
closer to Canadian beer!
torkrules
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I'm neurotic
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Quote:
Hard to beat a hyd roller for all around power, no wear issues etc USE THE MOREL lifters NOT the Comp Cams versions--for sure if you get a flat tappet to live --it is a lot less $$$$$ and will make excellent power--solid roller takes more spring pressure--OK for drag but you really have to watch pressure on street units as the cycles add up quick and wear out lifter bearing axles fast---
Best all round choice if $$ is not an issue is a hyd roller--Power, good vacuum, quiet ( one turn preload on the Morels and its quiet as a mouse peeing on a ball of cotton)
You can get a decent mechanical solid if you want. Any cam grinder can make a gentle ramp street roller that will live with 200 on the seat and 450 over the nose and still rev to 6500. A good set of lifters like crane or isky will last a long time with a set up like that. I did just that with a 472 hemi
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: torkrules]
#1171381
02/03/12 11:22 PM
02/03/12 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,421
Balt. Md
383man
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If you plan to run it hard or race it once in a while then I would think hard before I went with a roller. I only say it because alot of cam people say if you use an agressive roller that you might want to rebuild or change the roller lifters about every 3000 miles. I myself have never run a roller but they run alot more spring pressuer then a flat tappet. I have heard some stories of roller lifters coming apart between 5 to 10000 miles and its not good for an eng when a roller lifter comes apart.
Alot of guys do run rollers on the street and some say they never have no trouble. Thats why I say just weigh it out before you make your decision. I myself run a solid flat tappet in my 493 eng and I use the EDM lifters. But I knew I would race my car a few times a year and put alot of street miles on it so I did not want to worry about roller lifters. I am very happy with my solid flat tappet. If you dont plan to race it or run it hard then it will be less worry if you go with a roller. Ron
Last edited by 383man; 02/03/12 11:26 PM.
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: Beep Beep]
#1171385
02/05/12 12:20 AM
02/05/12 12:20 AM
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Joined: Jan 2007
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IN
ahy
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Hydraulic roller is low maintenance after setup also. A little higher performance potential and not as sensitive to oil type. Its just more expensive and may require more setup as the B/RB wasn't made for it originally.
PS: One drawback of the hydraulic roller is match with oil pump gear. B/RB roller cam cores are hard steel vs iron used for flat tappet. The steel oil pump drive gear machined into the cam does not work well with the stock style steel oil pump shaft drive gear. They do not make a good "wear pair" and bacically destroy each other. The fix is to run a bronze OP drive shaft gear. The drawback is wear of the bronze gear. Depending on lots of variables, it may last a few thousand miles or 10k+. The gear becomes a wear item. If there were iron core roller cores for street cams this problem would go away... I just don't think there are any.
This makes the flat tappet, with correct oil, a better choice in my book if you want to run some miles. Personally, I favor (and run) the mechanical flat tappet as performance potential is similar to a street hydraulic roller. I don't mind checking valve lash once in a while.
You are looking for lower maintenance so that favors the hydraulic flat tappet.
Last edited by ahy; 02/05/12 09:36 AM.
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: dogdays]
#1171387
02/07/12 01:56 AM
02/07/12 01:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 749
NY
Beep Beep
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This may be a stupid question but if I decide to go with hydraulic flat tappet, instead of the roller setup can I still use the Harland Sharp Roller Rockers?
Last edited by Beep Beep; 02/07/12 01:57 AM.
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: Beep Beep]
#1171388
02/07/12 02:06 AM
02/07/12 02:06 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
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U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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Quote:
This may be a stupid question but if I decide to go with hydraulic flat tappet, instead of the roller setup can I still use the Harland Sharp Roller Rockers?
Yes but they would be extreme overkill .
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: JohnRR]
#1171389
02/07/12 03:14 AM
02/07/12 03:14 AM
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 4,319
Puyallup, WA
StealthWedge67
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I'd strongly suggest a hydraulic flat-tappet cam here. But there's a few things here that make me a little concerned. An 11:1 street motor may not be as fun as you think for a guy that doesn't sound like he wants to work and tune it too much. Thats at the ragged edge of pump-gas capability, and if its not a race motor there's no need to push the envelope. I'd look to get it down in the 10:1 range for a street driver so you can put pump gas in it and have fun without constantly balancing timing and A/F mixture against detonation with 91 octane pump swill. Second, a low-deck 496 is a short piston motor, that is not generally considered real well suited to long-life street duty. I know cubes are cool, but if its a non-race motor, I might stick with a piston that keeps the rings out of the pin-bore. I'm no pro motor builder, but I'd stop at 470 for a street only 400-block build. Lastly, you've bought rocker gear before even knowing what type of cam you're going to use. A succesful build starts with a good plan based on the intended use. Based on what you said above (street only), theres no reason to spend money on expensive aftermarket rocker gear, as the stock gear will handle a plenty rumpety hydraulic cam, and will offer great street reliability, without having to be checked and adjusted periodically. If it were me, I'd sell the expensive rockers, and spend the money on a nice carburetor and perhaps a really good radiator (an 11:1 496 is gonna get hot in traffic!) I don't want to flame, and I certainly don't want to stop the progress of a big-inch mopar build. I'm just being honest about what I see. Your car and your money though, so my opinion can be ignored fairly easily.  Whatever you do, have fun.
LemonWedge - Street heavy / Strip ready - 11.07 @ 120
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: StealthWedge67]
#1171390
02/07/12 11:34 AM
02/07/12 11:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 74,948
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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I Win
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Quote:
I'd strongly suggest a hydraulic flat-tappet cam here. But there's a few things here that make me a little concerned.
An 11:1 street motor may not be as fun as you think for a guy that doesn't sound like he wants to work and tune it too much. Thats at the ragged edge of pump-gas capability, and if its not a race motor there's no need to push the envelope. I'd look to get it down in the 10:1 range for a street driver so you can put pump gas in it and have fun without constantly balancing timing and A/F mixture against detonation with 91 octane pump swill.
Second, a low-deck 496 is a short piston motor, that is not generally considered real well suited to long-life street duty. I know cubes are cool, but if its a non-race motor, I might stick with a piston that keeps the rings out of the pin-bore. I'm no pro motor builder, but I'd stop at 470 for a street only 400-block build.
Lastly, you've bought rocker gear before even knowing what type of cam you're going to use. A succesful build starts with a good plan based on the intended use. Based on what you said above (street only), theres no reason to spend money on expensive aftermarket rocker gear, as the stock gear will handle a plenty rumpety hydraulic cam, and will offer great street reliability, without having to be checked and adjusted periodically. If it were me, I'd sell the expensive rockers, and spend the money on a nice carburetor and perhaps a really good radiator (an 11:1 496 is gonna get hot in traffic!)
I don't want to flame, and I certainly don't want to stop the progress of a big-inch mopar build. I'm just being honest about what I see. Your car and your money though, so my opinion can be ignored fairly easily.
Whatever you do, have fun.
A 496 in a 400 block will not have the rings in the pin bore , the common piston for the low deck stroker is a 1.320 ch which doesn't have the pin that high. I'm not sure what stroke crank he is using but It sounds like he would want to use a taller CH piston or a custom piston made with longer skirts to make the piston more stable.
Is there even a hyd. flat tappet that is big enough to run well in a 500" build ?
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: Beep Beep]
#1171391
02/07/12 02:06 PM
02/07/12 02:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 489
NE
bigtail
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Hyd. Roller is the low maint. way to go. STAY away from Comp Cams Hyd Rooler lifters. Do a search here. Crane cams makes a dist gear that will work with a Hyd. roller cam. It is supposed to last MUCH longer than the bronze gears. Comp Cams only offers the composite gears for Fords and Chevys, as far as I can tell. Why are you running ALUMINUM rockers on a street engine? Aluminum is for drag race only. Fatigue in aluminum can happen at any time, as oppossed to ductile iron. I would go with Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum (look under the steel stud mount rocker arm section online) or contact Rocker Arm Specialties (RAS) before EVER considering aluminum for the street. Hyd. Roller might cost a little more initially, but you don't have to worry about wiping a cam lobe at engine break in (there is no break in for a roller cam), and you don't have to worry about adjusting them. They have grinds available that will perform just as good as solid roller without all the hassle. Add up all the pros and cons, and a Hyd. Roller with a good dist gear (and iron valve train) is the ticket you will probably want for your engine. Read Andy Fs book, How To Build Max Performance Mopar Big Blocks. (amazon-ebay) Decide what you want out of your engine, and how to accomplish those goals. Don't just go throwing money (ie, High priced race only parts) at a block and then be dissapointed at the outcome when the parts don't work well together. Do your homework before you buy parts. Andy F's book is an excellent easy to read/comprehend outline that will save you tons of money and grief. There is, of course, excellent time proven advice here on Moparts learned the hard way as well. Good Luck!
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Re: Which lifters to use?
[Re: ]
#1171392
02/07/12 04:26 PM
02/07/12 04:26 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 179
Up in the North and Far Away
AutoEngineer
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member
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Up in the North and Far Away
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Quote:
Hard to beat a hyd roller for all around power, no wear issues etc USE THE MOREL lifters NOT the Comp Cams versions Best all round choice if $$ is not an issue is a hyd roller--Power, good vacuum, quiet ( one turn preload on the Morels and its quiet as a mouse peeing on a ball of cotton)
Who makes hydraulic roller lifters for LUNATI, could it be Morel?
http://johncalliesinc.com/dealers.php
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