Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
downflow vs. crossflow radiators #1134118
12/14/11 10:12 PM
12/14/11 10:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 94
north of detroit
J
Johnsdart Offline OP
member
Johnsdart  Offline OP
member
J

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 94
north of detroit
Are there distinct differences between the two types of radiators as far as one style is more efficient cooling over the other ?

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Johnsdart] #1134119
12/15/11 12:46 AM
12/15/11 12:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 954
garnett kansas
rhad Offline
super stock
rhad  Offline
super stock

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 954
garnett kansas
no!

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: rhad] #1134120
12/15/11 02:06 AM
12/15/11 02:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
Magnum Offline
master
Magnum  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,789
Hamilton, Ontario Canada
I have zero research backing up my theory but here it is.

Tall radiators like our Mopars have and big trucks have downflows to keep the tubes long.
Short and wide radiators would have extremely short tubes if they flowed downwards.


69 Super Bee, 93 Mustang LX, 04 Allure Super
Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Magnum] #1134121
12/15/11 06:10 AM
12/15/11 06:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo Offline
Too Many Posts
DaytonaTurbo  Offline
Too Many Posts

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318
Manitoba, Canada
I don't think you'll see any real-world difference in the types of rads you'll use in our old cars. I run a crossflow and like it just fine.

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: DaytonaTurbo] #1134122
12/15/11 07:45 AM
12/15/11 07:45 AM
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska
astjp2 Offline
master
astjp2  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,785
Utah and Alaska

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: astjp2] #1134123
12/15/11 11:28 AM
12/15/11 11:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
D
dogdays Offline
I Live Here
dogdays  Offline
I Live Here
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
I read it and didn't see a single thing about downflow or crossflow. Did I miss anything?

In general if the radiator is a single pass heat exchanger it doesn't really matter what direction the tubes run. I believe that radiators had vertical tubes because they fit in the grilles better and could have the radiator cap at the top where it was most easily accessed. When Detroit went to the "longer, lower, wider" mentality the radiators became lower and wider to fit under the hoods, thus the crossflow radiator.

R.

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: dogdays] #1134124
12/15/11 12:10 PM
12/15/11 12:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,274
Ontario.Canada
C
can.al Offline
pro stock
can.al  Offline
pro stock
C

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,274
Ontario.Canada
..a cross flow will lose cooling from the top few rows unless you have a coolant recovery tank.

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: can.al] #1134125
12/15/11 09:00 PM
12/15/11 09:00 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
D
Dean_Kuzluzski Offline
master
Dean_Kuzluzski  Offline
master
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
Given the same area of fins and capacity of tubes the difference is neglible. What will make a difference is the style of fins.

What makes a HUGE difference and why I'd never get another downflow if I had the choice is that the downflow tubes will plug up a whole lot sooner than a crossflow will. The crossflow will lose one or two tubes at a time. The downflow is losing whole areas where sludge is gathering.

My 6 year old Dodge Durango lost major cooling ability last summer. If you put your hand on the rad. fins it was obvious that several sections of tubes were cooler and limited. In the span of owning at least 3 crossflow style rads in off brand cars.....I've NEVER had to replace a radiator due to blockage in 20+ years.

Last edited by Dean_Kuzluzski; 12/15/11 09:01 PM.

R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Dean_Kuzluzski] #1134126
12/15/11 09:50 PM
12/15/11 09:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,719
Space Station #5
471Magnum Offline
master
471Magnum  Offline
master

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,719
Space Station #5
Don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but cross flows are more prevalent these days due to lower hood lines. Just can't make a down flow work in these situations.

In a "square" package though, there should be little difference in cooling capacity all else being equal. You will lose cooling capacity with a cross flow without an expansion tank that will keep it full and coolant flowing through all rows.


-Jim

I can fix it... my old man is a television repairman.
He's got the ultimate set of tools... I can fix it.

Currently Mopar-less
Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: 471Magnum] #1134127
12/16/11 01:45 PM
12/16/11 01:45 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
J
Junky Offline
master
Junky  Offline
master
J

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
How about we throw a 26" stock steel downflow radiator out of a late 60's B body and a 26" after market aluminum crossflow radiator into the mix. Which one is superior...?


2010 Black Challenger SE <> 3.5 V6
Custom Shift Knobs www.flameball.com Check It Out
Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Junky] #1134128
12/16/11 04:15 PM
12/16/11 04:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
F
Fury Fan Offline
master
Fury Fan  Offline
master
F

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
If the area of the exchanger (and other factors, of course) is held equal, a greater quantity of short tubes will outcool a smaller qty of long tubes.

Cooling occurs due to the difference in temp between tubes and airflow, so you will achieve greater heat exchange thru teh 1st 1/2 of a tube compared to the 2nd 1/2.

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Junky] #1134129
12/16/11 04:27 PM
12/16/11 04:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
D
Dean_Kuzluzski Offline
master
Dean_Kuzluzski  Offline
master
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
Quote:

How about we throw a 26" stock steel downflow radiator out of a late 60's B body and a 26" after market aluminum crossflow radiator into the mix. Which one is superior...?




The one that is aluminum has the advantage.


R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Dean_Kuzluzski] #1134130
12/16/11 04:42 PM
12/16/11 04:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
F
Fury Fan Offline
master
Fury Fan  Offline
master
F

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Copper/brass have better coefficients for heat transfer, but tube & fin design/layout in a modern radiator can make up for decreased heat transfer of aluminum (compared to an 'old' radiator).

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Fury Fan] #1134131
12/16/11 04:58 PM
12/16/11 04:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
D
Dean_Kuzluzski Offline
master
Dean_Kuzluzski  Offline
master
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,938
Holly/MI
Quote:

Copper/brass have better coefficients for heat transfer, but tube & fin design/layout in a modern radiator can make up for decreased heat transfer of aluminum (compared to an 'old' radiator).




Soooooo, that most likely makes now, 2 advantages that the newer styled aluminum rad. has over a "stock" unit.

I'm still not convinced that a longer tube has less efficiency over shorter, but numerically more, tubes.


R.I.P.- Gary "Coop" Davis 02/09/68-05/13/04
Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Dean_Kuzluzski] #1134132
12/16/11 07:08 PM
12/16/11 07:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
F
Fury Fan Offline
master
Fury Fan  Offline
master
F

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,533
Indiana
Quote:

I'm still not convinced that a longer tube has less efficiency over shorter, but numerically more, tubes.




I’ve read it in Corky Bell’s book, I understood it, I think I can explain it.

I suspect that you understand that hte greater the temperature difference, the greater (faster) that heat transfer will occur. It is therefore a non-linear event – with a constant ambient temperature of say 80°, hot coffee will cool faster from 150° to 145° than it will cool from 105° to 100°.

So, consider 1 tube 26" long. I’ll call heat removal ‘X’. Ambient temperature is constant for the whole radiator, so the 2nd section tries to exchange heat with a temperature differential that is lower/closer to ambient, so the 2nd section will not be able to exchange the same heat as the top half, so it will be less than ‘X’. Let’s just say perhaps 1.5 X for the top half and X for the bottom.

Now consider 2 tubes 13” long, and with all other conditions the same, we’ll have 2 times 1.5 X of heat removal. Without a bunch of coefficients, flowrates, and calculations we don’t know the difference between all the X’s, but mathematically/logically we see it.

The same principle explains why adding additional cores/thickness does not increase cooling by the same amount as the core before it. The first row of core receives ambient airflow, but the row of core tubes behind it receives warmer ambient air, and therefore does not exchange as much heat as core #1.

So now you say ’sure, we’ve got more heat rejection from teh 2 short tubes compared to the long one, but logically the overall temperature is lower at the end of the long tube’ (and I agree with that). But as heat rejection and temperature drop aren’t the same thing (there is more energy lost from 150-145 than from 105-100) I would say that as time goes on, the longer tube system would normalize to a higher temperature than it started, and higher than the 2 short tubes.

If anyone can provide a better/correct explanation of this, I'll be glad to edit/delete my wrong info.

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Fury Fan] #1134133
12/16/11 07:13 PM
12/16/11 07:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
dOrk ! Offline
The village idiot's idiot
dOrk !  Offline
The village idiot's idiot

Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 30,424
Florida STAYcation
Any new rads I buy in the future wil be ...crossflow DUAL PASS !

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: dOrk !] #1134134
12/17/11 09:11 PM
12/17/11 09:11 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
J
Junky Offline
master
Junky  Offline
master
J

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,186
Wherever I am.
This spring I'm going to replace the stock type 26" radiator with an aluminum (Griffin) crossflow. This thread has been very informative.


2010 Black Challenger SE <> 3.5 V6
Custom Shift Knobs www.flameball.com Check It Out
Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: Junky] #1134135
12/17/11 09:57 PM
12/17/11 09:57 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,060
Pendleton NY
T
terzmo Offline
top fuel
terzmo  Offline
top fuel
T

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,060
Pendleton NY
crossflow cools better.....looks uglier but cools better

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: terzmo] #1134136
12/17/11 10:23 PM
12/17/11 10:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,248
fredericksburg,va
C
cudaman1969 Offline
master
cudaman1969  Offline
master
C

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,248
fredericksburg,va
Are we forgetting one thing that heated water will flow to the top faster in vertical tubes. So. the bottom has cooler water for the engine.

Re: downflow vs. crossflow radiators [Re: cudaman1969] #1134137
12/18/11 12:04 AM
12/18/11 12:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
S
Strawdawg Offline
member
Strawdawg  Offline
member
S

Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 183
Eden, Texas
Cross flow units have the advantage of having the radiator cap on the low pressure end of tubes so that a high volume water pump that builds additional pressure in the block (which is a good thing as it raises the boiling point in the block thus minimizing localized steam points) will not blow the seal on the radiator cap.

Further wide rectangular aluminum tubes provide better heat transfer because more surface area is exposed to the air flow as opposed to the oval tubes that must be used in copper/brass units in order to maintain strength. In these units the air flow tends to skip across the high points of the tubes instead of following the contour.

And, the obvious, the wider tubes don't plug up with precipitates/sludge as easily as do the small tubes and the radiator weighs less as a bonus.


Steve






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1