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R3 cylinder wall thickness #1088103 10/04/11 12:41 AM 10/04/11 12:41 AM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink OP mopar
DakFink OP mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	I have a P4876673 that has been bored out to 4.245". What is the final cylinder wall thickness after that big of a bore? On average? I kow all blocks vary. The shop I am talking to about building the engine is concerned that the walls may be too thin for the application we are looking to use it for. (Boost) That being said they looked the block up through Mopar and as we all know they list 4.220" as the Max suggested bore. Unfortunate I'm overseas at the moment or I would just have it sonic-checked and be done.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: DakFink] #1088104 10/04/11 12:52 AM 10/04/11 12:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA Plumb Wired master
Plumb Wired master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA	Only way to know for sure is to sonic check. FIW my old boosted motor was siamese bore, 9.20" deck, R3 that was 4.250" bore. Mike Gray RIP Monte Smith aka: OutlawFish '98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Plumb Wired] #1088105 10/04/11 01:59 AM 10/04/11 01:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink OP mopar
DakFink OP mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	Mike, Thanks!! I am talking to ProLine and was really surprised that they don't have the equipment to do sonic-checks. Wall Thickness and Head Gasket thickness between the cylinders was their Big 2 concerns. They said they usually stick with a 4.125 bore, but will go out to 4.155 when they have to. But that is all Chevy and Ford small block stuff. They told me that the Turbos like the big stroke, but not so much the big bore. They said they could build it BUT wanted to know it was going to live. They don't want to build something that may have reliability issues. I told them I would ask around and see if anyone knew. If not I'd have it soniced when I get home again. Last edited by DakFink; 10/04/11 02:02 AM.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: DakFink] #1088106 10/04/11 02:17 AM 10/04/11 02:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA Plumb Wired master
Plumb Wired master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA	At 4.250" bore mine was fine in the thrust directions but a little thin in the non thrust, half filled, never any issues. At that large of a bore the problem comes with future rebuilds and the possible need for sleeves. If I were to build another boosted engine I'd start with a tall deck block at around 4.155"-4.185" bore and a 4"-4.125" stroke. My old combo was 4.250" x 3.79" stroke, made it hard to build boost with the 106mm, 1.32, g-trim turbo and the short stroke. Did fine with the 101mm, 1.00, f-trim. Last edited by OutlawFish; 10/04/11 02:18 AM. RIP Monte Smith aka: OutlawFish '98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Plumb Wired] #1088107 10/04/11 03:06 AM 10/04/11 03:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink OP mopar
DakFink OP mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	I may do that? get a new block have it sonic checked from virgin and let them make the call how big to go.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: DakFink] #1088108 10/04/11 09:50 AM 10/04/11 09:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,112 LONG ISLAND fishy340 master
fishy340 master Joined: Jun 2010 Posts: 3,112 LONG ISLAND	i agree with mike,my engine went to ryan a vigin r3... one of the 1st things he did was sonic test,its 4.185 bore w a 4" crank,cool little 440 he built me.ps lots of meat left also for a future bore if the next owner of it wants to do it.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: fishy340] #1088109 10/04/11 11:46 AM 10/04/11 11:46 AM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink OP mopar
DakFink OP mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	No one has actual numbers?

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: DakFink] #1088110 10/04/11 11:55 AM 10/04/11 11:55 AM
Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 614 Michigan G Get-X mopar
Get-X mopar G Joined: Aug 2006 Posts: 614 Michigan	Quote: No one has actual numbers? No one is going to have any numbers that will tell you where YOUR block is other than a sonic checker. Core shift makes all blocks different, so once you get outside of what the recommended max bore size is sonic checking it is the only way to know. '65 Belvedere '68 GTX '57 Dodge pickup

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Get-X] #1088111 10/04/11 06:21 PM 10/04/11 06:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA Leon441 master
Leon441 master Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA	Kenny your block is filled to the bottom of the water pump holes. Sonny's sonic checked the block. There was only one area they were concerned with and like Mike stated with his block it was not a thrust area. If memory surves correctly it was either #1 or #2 on the front and it was a small area. I was told by Tim Davis that filling was unnecessary . I had him fill it anyway. I would not build any W7-9 engine with a 4.155 bore. I realize with boost it is not so important but, from experience I can tell you bore is king with these heads. Leon Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Leon441] #1088112 10/04/11 06:28 PM 10/04/11 06:28 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: Kenny your block is filled to the bottom of the water pump holes. Sonny's sonic checked the block. There was only one area they were concerned with and like Mike stated with his block it was not a thrust area. If memory surves correctly it was either #1 or #2 on the front and it was a small area. I was told by Tim Davis that filling was unnecessary . I had him fill it anyway. I would not build any W7-9 engine with a 4.155 bore. I realize with boost it is not so important but, from experience I can tell you bore is king with these heads. Leon I agree... I'm sorry I built mine at 4.125 bore... wish I would have gone 4.185

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Leon441] #1088113 10/05/11 06:40 AM 10/05/11 06:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink OP mopar
DakFink OP mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	Leon, Thanks! I was hoping to get an Idea. I know the only way to get solid numbers would be to sonic-check my block. I agree, with the heads I have I don't want to go too small.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Leon441] #1088114 10/05/11 10:51 AM 10/05/11 10:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 945 La Vernia, Texas Pat7272 super stock
Pat7272 super stock Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 945 La Vernia, Texas	Quote: I would not build any W7-9 engine with a 4.155 bore. I realize with boost it is not so important but, from experience I can tell you bore is king with these heads. Leon How about 4.185 in a boosted motor? I dont plan on going any less than that I dont think but dont want to go larger than necessary on my first R3 build.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Pat7272] #1088115 10/05/11 12:16 PM 10/05/11 12:16 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA Plumb Wired master
Plumb Wired master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA	Quote: Quote: I would not build any W7-9 engine with a 4.155 bore. I realize with boost it is not so important but, from experience I can tell you bore is king with these heads. Leon How about 4.185 in a boosted motor? I dont plan on going any less than that I dont think but dont want to go larger than necessary on my first R3 build. It all comes down to ring availability for given bore size. I haven't looked into it in sometime but there used to be a gap between 4.185" & 4.200", especially in a hell fire ring for a nitrous or boosted combo. RIP Monte Smith aka: OutlawFish '98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Plumb Wired] #1088116 10/05/11 10:03 PM 10/05/11 10:03 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA Leon441 master
Leon441 master Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA	It all comes down to ring availability for given bore size. I haven't looked into it in sometime but there used to be a gap between 4.185" & 4.200", especially in a hell fire ring for a nitrous or boosted combo. 4.185 was never a problem with Hell fire as the ring is actually 4.190 file fit to 4.185. When running nitrous most would run at least .030" clearance I ran a lot more. The 4.190" ring worked in a 4.200 bore with no problems. My engine had great leak down test cold and hot. A little nitrous BO BO and I had to hone out to 4.210. Total seal suggested I try a straight ductile ring. That thing toased quick. The Hell Fire 4.190" ring just would not work out either. At the time , early 2000's, you could not get a Hell Fire anywhere from 4.190-4.285. So many engines factory bored at 4.250 and no Hell Fire rings. I talked to Chris at Ross and decided a Childs and Albert tool steel ring was available for 4.255. We discussed this with some ring experts and after checking the block went with a 4.245" bore allowing many rebuilds as we could easily hone out to 4.255" with the block. Never had to go over 4.245" with the bore. That is where it is today. Now years later and some new ideas on my next build I am told by Keith at Total Seal that nitrous freindly rings are readily available for any bore between 4.185 and 4.280. Keith is well aware of all the trouble we went through years ago. Knowing all this I would build an R3 with a large bore again. Most of the time if you screw up bad with nitrous a small bore change is not going to fix the block. A good sleeve can be better than the block was to start with. Leon Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Leon441] #1088117 10/06/11 08:17 AM 10/06/11 08:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink OP mopar
DakFink OP mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	Same topic different aspect. ProLine hit me up with another question yesterday. How much material is between the 2 center cylinder exhaust gaskets? They said that this is a BIG issue with engines that have the middle 2 exhaust valves right next to each other. Also the same reason they stay away from conventional SB Chevies for boost builds as well. They were concerned that the 2 exhaust valves being next to each other and the Larger bore or even a smaller bore with the head chambers milled too much toward each other on the center cylinders would not leave enough material for the head-gaskets to seal and withstand the Heat and Cylinder pressures.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: DakFink] #1088118 10/06/11 08:52 AM 10/06/11 08:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: Same topic different aspect. ProLine hit me up with another question yesterday. How much material is between the 2 center cylinder exhaust gaskets? They said that this is a BIG issue with engines that have the middle 2 exhaust valves right next to each other. Also the same reason they stay away from conventional SB Chevies for boost builds as well. They were concerned that the 2 exhaust valves being next to each other and the Larger bore or even a smaller bore with the head chambers milled too much toward each other on the center cylinders would not leave enough material for the head-gaskets to seal and withstand the Heat and Cylinder pressures. What heads are you running

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1088119 10/06/11 10:52 AM 10/06/11 10:52 AM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink OP mopar
DakFink OP mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	Guess that would help fi I want some advice!!! DOH!! I have a set of W9-RPs set-up for an alcohol sprint car but were never actually used.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: DakFink] #1088120 10/06/11 11:07 AM 10/06/11 11:07 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA Plumb Wired master
Plumb Wired master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,813 Blue Ridge, VA	Quote: Same topic different aspect. ProLine hit me up with another question yesterday. How much material is between the 2 center cylinder exhaust gaskets? They said that this is a BIG issue with engines that have the middle 2 exhaust valves right next to each other. Also the same reason they stay away from conventional SB Chevies for boost builds as well. They were concerned that the 2 exhaust valves being next to each other and the Larger bore or even a smaller bore with the head chambers milled too much toward each other on the center cylinders would not leave enough material for the head-gaskets to seal and withstand the Heat and Cylinder pressures. Kenny, like I said before my old combo siamese, 4.250" bore, oringed, copper gaskets, 30+ pounds of boost, no problems. I know ProLine knows their stuff but obviously they aren't familiar with SB Mopars. Have you talked with Ryan Johnson (SDSS)? RIP Monte Smith aka: OutlawFish '98 Bickel Dodge Dakota PST

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: Plumb Wired] #1088121 10/06/11 11:55 AM 10/06/11 11:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 945 La Vernia, Texas Pat7272 super stock
Pat7272 super stock Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 945 La Vernia, Texas	It sure is nice to read some real high tech SBM stuff on the net! Keep the info coming please guys.

Re: R3 cylinder wall thickness [Re: DakFink] #1088122 10/06/11 12:14 PM 10/06/11 12:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	I've seen on sprint car engines and drag race engines that have a #6 or #8 coolant line running to the area between the center exhaust ports... I didnt do it, I felt there wasnt a reason to on my engine

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