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Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: stumpy] #1077494
10/05/11 06:28 PM
10/05/11 06:28 PM
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JohnRR Offline
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I didn't go back and read everything but I see you changed the switch because this was happening , what did you change or modify before this started or did it all of a sudden happen ?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: JohnRR] #1077495
10/07/11 05:13 PM
10/07/11 05:13 PM
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The Historic Hudson Valley
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Quote:

I didn't go back and read everything but I see you changed the switch because this was happening , what did you change or modify before this started or did it all of a sudden happen ?




I did not change or modify anything before this was happening.
I just hadn't started the car in a few months.

When I went to start it after a few months, it was having this problem, but I got it started.
When I went to drive it, I warmed it about for about 15 minutes, then when I was driving it for a about a mile, the car stalled.
Couldn't get it restarted ( meaning when I turned the key it didn't even crank).

So I had it towed back to the house and have been working on it ever since...

So is the fact that it stalled AND having the starting issue , related??
I suspect it is, but not sure what it points to, hence me replacing everything I could think of, including the ignition switch.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077496
10/07/11 05:45 PM
10/07/11 05:45 PM
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Aurora, Colorado
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Check the alternator field brushs and holders, you may be getting a short circuit in the primary wiring.
Disconnect the alternator field wires and the Voltage regulator and see if the car starts. If it will now start, when it did not before, I would suspect some short in the wiring as mentioned above.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077497
10/07/11 07:46 PM
10/07/11 07:46 PM
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Thanks I'll check that out tomorrow.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077498
10/07/11 09:02 PM
10/07/11 09:02 PM
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Jefferson State
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srt Offline
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How about making a couple jumpers to route around the harness wiring. With all the new components you have installed I believe the problem may be a partialy broken wire in the leg that provides juice during cranking.
Also have you checked the nss? Jump that and try to start.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: srt] #1077499
10/08/11 10:03 AM
10/08/11 10:03 AM
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arizona, usa
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check the connector where your ingition wires (from ingition switch) connect, this should be along the steering colum. brothers 70 chaly would the same as you. squeezed the connector together real hard and it would start.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077500
10/08/11 03:13 PM
10/08/11 03:13 PM
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Quote:

Check the alternator field brushs and holders, you may be getting a short circuit in the primary wiring.
Disconnect the alternator field wires and the Voltage regulator and see if the car starts. If it will now start, when it did not before, I would suspect some short in the wiring as mentioned above.




Jus tried this, and it did not start, but thanks for the suggestion.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: srt] #1077501
10/08/11 03:14 PM
10/08/11 03:14 PM
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Quote:

How about making a couple jumpers to route around the harness wiring. With all the new components you have installed I believe the problem may be a partialy broken wire in the leg that provides juice during cranking.
Also have you checked the nss? Jump that and try to start.




I did a lot of jumper testing previously, no change.

What is NSS?

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: MONC] #1077502
10/08/11 03:46 PM
10/08/11 03:46 PM
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Sunny South Florida
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Neutral Start Switch


"When Tyranny Becomes Law, Rebellion Becomes Duty"

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Golden-Arm] #1077503
10/08/11 06:47 PM
10/08/11 06:47 PM
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Eden, Texas
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What is the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp...not the battery post, but the clamp, when you crank the car over? And, then on the actual post, not the clamp...when cranking?


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077504
10/08/11 09:33 PM
10/08/11 09:33 PM
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Eden, Texas
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Oh, yeah...use the battery negative post for your ground probe. If you see no large voltage drop while cranking, then try it again with the ground probe on a good ground point on the engine, and then, on the car body.


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077505
10/09/11 02:15 AM
10/09/11 02:15 AM
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I looked at the wiring diagram links for a 70 challenger and being they didn't have electronic ignition in 70 I assume you wired it in. Where did you wire it in and how did you do it? Here is a link to how to wire it http://www.allpar.com/fix/electronic-ignition.html I would think that you dont have power to the ignition box in start mode from the ignition switch or added wiring.I would run a wire from the battery positive to the #1 pin on the module (if you look at the link posted) and then crank normally with the key and see if the car starts now.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger] #1077506
10/09/11 02:57 AM
10/09/11 02:57 AM
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Eden, Texas
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He has already done that....


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077507
10/09/11 03:07 AM
10/09/11 03:07 AM
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I read where he powered up the coil positive but not the ign box. If im wrong sorry. Just trying to help.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger] #1077508
10/09/11 05:01 AM
10/09/11 05:01 AM
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Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:

I read where he powered up the coil positive but not the ign box. If im wrong sorry. Just trying to help.




Jumping power to the coil positive "should" provide power the the ignition ECU box in the same manner as having the key in the start position. Which means the power has to flow (back) through the ballast resistor to power the box. Because the ballast resistor should be 1-ohm or less this should not be a problem unless there is excessive current draw on the same "run" circuit which also the the power ti the alternator field and voltage regulator (on some models also the electric choke?)
I guess you could isolate that circuit be disconnecting the alternator field terminal, the voltage regulator and the ECU, then with the ignition switch in the "off" position, jumper power to the coil positive again and verify no current is flowing through the ballast resistor. You could wire an ampmeter in series with the ballast resistor, or measure the voltage drop across the ballast resistor and see how re-attaching the various loads previously disconnected draws power. It would be a good way the check out the wiring in that circuit. Also, you can check that power is getting the the ECU connector. In fact, you should see power on two of the ECU terminals, the normal power terminal and the wire connected to the coil negative terminal. The other two terminals are the magnetic pickup connections to the distrubitor.
Re-connecting the ECU connector should result in the ECU grounding the coil negative terminal if the ECU box is grounded.
That is all there is the ignition and charging circuitry. As I mentioned before this should work even if the bulkhead connector or ignition switch are removed... They are just supplying the power that the jumper wire is now doing.
The only other required circuit is the starter circuit, to spin the engine. The major difference here is when cranking the engine it places a large current load through the battery and battery cables and any resistance in these paths or a weak battery will result in voltage drops seen in all the circuits.
A small resistance of even 0.5-ohm with 50 amps through it is a 2.5volt voltage drop, and a 5-volt voltage drop at 100 amps.

When the engine wants to start only after releasing the key from the start position to the run position, it is because the high current starter load is removed and with less current draw, the voltage drops are reduced resulting in more voltage, and to the ECU. Also because the starter and the ECU are really grounded in two totally different areas (starter to engine block, and ECU to body) there is also a chance of a ground loop voltage problem that can interfere with the ECU sensing the magnetic pickup signal from the distrubitor.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077509
10/09/11 09:55 AM
10/09/11 09:55 AM
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Central TX
roe Offline
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If you guys are worried about starter draw because of resistance, he should check the condition of his starter cables. I went to clean a small amount of tarnish/corrosion from the connection at my starter cable to battery, and split the tip of my insulation to take a peek, man it was bad. I ended up completely stripping the insulation off and cleaning the length of the wire. You would not believe how bad of shape that wire was in. I cleaned it, put some tarnish protector on it and new insulation, and it was much better starting, especially when hot.

roe



1971 Plymouth Satellite
408/904 8 3/4 3.23 SG
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: 451Mopar] #1077510
10/09/11 11:06 AM
10/09/11 11:06 AM
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Eden, Texas
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Strawdawg Offline
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451mopar is where we were a week or so ago. This should be a simple thing to find.

We keep worrying about the ignition switch, the bulkhead connector, etc., but that was eliminated by the jumpers from the battery if they were connected as we asked.

I asked him a few posts up to take some voltages off the battery while cranking it to try to demonstrate that problem was in that area even tho we should have shown that with the jumper tests.

I was also trying to determine if the problem was on the plus side, or the negative side, of the battery. A bad ground connection will do the same as a a bad positive connection.

Long ago, I had asked to power the ignition box/coil off a separate battery to show it would then start if nothing was pulling the ignition voltage down. This was not done to my knowledge, but, really, the first thing to find out what is causing the big drop.

I had originally guessed a bad battery, a bad connection, or a starter that was pulling way too much current. Given the size of the voltage drop and the fact that the starter is spinning, I would probably guess one of the latter two, but, a few tests should find the answer.

Sometimes these things are really confusing and it takes a logical approach to try to zero in on the actual problem-old cars where every thing should be suspect do not make it easier.:)


Steve
Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077511
10/09/11 11:38 AM
10/09/11 11:38 AM
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This is what Iv'e been saying also. and 451has been saying the same things .
this engine should have been starting long ago with the key in the start position with what we've been asking for the OP to do . Finding the problem is another story but the engine should be running!!! I'm beginning to wonder .

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: Strawdawg] #1077512
10/09/11 12:55 PM
10/09/11 12:55 PM
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The Historic Hudson Valley
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Quote:

What is the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp...not the battery post, but the clamp, when you crank the car over? And, then on the actual post, not the clamp...when cranking?




I measured the voltage reading on the positive battery terminal clamp while cranking as requested, it was approximately 10.9 volts.

I cannot measure it at the post while cranking because I am by myself and cannot figure out a way to rig something to just touch the post and nothing else without holding it.

I also measured it at the positive clamp at rest and it was about 12.8 volts.

Re: Car starts when key is RELEASED, why? * UPDATE* [Re: dustyswinger] #1077513
10/09/11 12:59 PM
10/09/11 12:59 PM
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Quote:

I looked at the wiring diagram links for a 70 challenger and being they didn't have electronic ignition in 70 I assume you wired it in. Where did you wire it in and how did you do it? Here is a link to how to wire it http://www.allpar.com/fix/electronic-ignition.html I would think that you dont have power to the ignition box in start mode from the ignition switch or added wiring.I would run a wire from the battery positive to the #1 pin on the module (if you look at the link posted) and then crank normally with the key and see if the car starts now.




I did not install the electronic ignition on this car, it was installed when I bought it, and ran fine for the past few years.
This has only been a recent issue.

The ECU is mounted behind the glovebox and difficult to access.
I did manage to replace it already and checked for sufficient ground.
I did not do any pin tests on the ECU.

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