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EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10303
03/07/04 10:32 PM
03/07/04 10:32 PM
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i took a few pics of the different rods to disprove the notion that all these rods are the same. not only do the individual forgings have different beam thicknesses, but they all have different machining in both ends. some have suggested that all of these rods come from the same forgings, i think not. you be the judge. i didn't have a scat rod handy, but it is also different in several ways. as soon as i get some more in, i'll include a pic of that one also.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10304
03/07/04 10:34 PM
03/07/04 10:34 PM
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10305
03/07/04 10:35 PM
03/07/04 10:35 PM
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10306
03/07/04 10:36 PM
03/07/04 10:36 PM
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10307
03/07/04 10:41 PM
03/07/04 10:41 PM
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thats pretty interesting. some time back, 8-9 months ago, i compared an eagle to a cat and couldn't see any difference ,other than bolts. i didn't have any manleys to look at.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10308
03/07/04 11:10 PM
03/07/04 11:10 PM
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can you see the difference now? i was going to tell which was which, but i'm guessing some folks will be able to do thast right away. of the two "similar" looking rods, check out the difference in the way the bolt holes are machines in particular. one method is stronger than the other.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10309
03/07/04 11:16 PM
03/07/04 11:16 PM
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The threaded portion of the Manley rod looks stronger. Looks like the beam area of the eagle is beefier.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECID
#10310
03/07/04 11:17 PM
03/07/04 11:17 PM
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Omaha Nebraska
Brian_wo
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well on this picture the top one is a manly,I have said it here before that on the manlys it looks as if they took some sort of large end ball mill? and made one pass down the middle there and made a real nice looking U groove but on the Eagle it looks as if they used a much smaller bit and had to make two passes leaving an ugly ridge down the center.
I didn't look at the first couple pictures but did you show where the rod bolts would stick through? the manly the bolt doesn't stick out the end where as the on the Eagle it does meaning it doesn't have as much meat.
who is that guy?
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECID
[Re: Brian_wo]
#10311
03/07/04 11:39 PM
03/07/04 11:39 PM
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Ok, so which ones have failed on you?
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECID
#10312
03/08/04 01:06 AM
03/08/04 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Ok, so which ones have failed on you?
sorry, i'm not going down that road again, LOL. i'm simply trying to show that the myth about all of these rods being the same is just that, a myth.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECID
#10313
03/08/04 02:10 AM
03/08/04 02:10 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,126
A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Posts: 75,126
A Banana Republic near you.
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Quote:
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Ok, so which ones have failed on you?
sorry, i'm not going down that road again, LOL. i'm simply trying to show that the myth about all of these rods being the same is just that, a myth.
hey , didn't i see you on the discovery channel today on mythbusters ???
only you were squeezing a duck trying to make it quack ?????
running up my post count some more .
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECID
[Re: JohnRR]
#10314
03/08/04 08:47 AM
03/08/04 08:47 AM
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John, that was me, LOL. glad to see you recognized me. just wait until you see next weeks episode...you won't believe it... 
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECID
#10315
03/08/04 12:12 PM
03/08/04 12:12 PM
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well obv. those rods are not all alike but.....
The distributor I got my rods from swore up and down that he got shippments of all 3 of those brands with the machining for the tangs for the bearings all machined incorrectly, all exactly the same and incorrect. I assume if he was a web savvy type guy he would have taken digital pictures of all those. It would be very interesting to have that picture to put in this thread as well.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: JohnRR]
#10317
03/08/04 02:34 PM
03/08/04 02:34 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,908
Nebraska
4406bbl
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Nebraska
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Well,well,well,maybe some of the people on this board should listen up instead of talking about things they have never held in their hands,or compared side by side. I posted,and several others mentioned 2-3 years ago that Manley rods were quite different,and better in the big end in my opinion than Eagles and was told no they are the same,I thought I needed glasses or was seeing things,so I gave up,thanks for posting this Performance Only. I will never buy anything but Manleys for a budget build like I do. 
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: 4406bbl]
#10318
03/08/04 03:19 PM
03/08/04 03:19 PM
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i think someone famous once said, a picture is worth a thousand words. of course, that was before photoshop came out, LOL.
the photo's are not doctored in any way here. i would like to see pictures of all three of those brands with the tangs all machined incorrectly. do you want to reveal your source on that wayne?
the rods, from left to right are, eagle, cat, manley. as i said, when i get my order of scats in, i'll post that pic too. all rods are in out of the box condition. the machining differences in some area's appear subtle, but can make a difference in strength characteristics overall.
the area where machined threads are not present in the big end is because they don't want stress risers there. as you can see, some manufacturers must not think it's an issue. bolts do not protrude in to that area.
this is one of those cases where a connecting rod looks like such a simple thing but there is way more to them than meets the eye. i'm not looking for anyone to agree with my taste in con rods, just to understand why i prefer some over the others. after all, in the end a 100 bucks for a biuldup isn't much, but when things go wrong because of a lesser quality part, and they do sometimes if pushed to the limit, the 100 bucks would have been worth it.
Last edited by Performance_Only; 03/08/04 03:21 PM.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10319
03/08/04 03:27 PM
03/08/04 03:27 PM
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However, we are definately looking at three different length rods there. All three are different without question, but I need to see three of the same before saying for sure theyre not made in the same foundary, unless someone in the foundary says so.
Also, just because the finished product may look different, doesnt mean that the basic forging didnt start out the same.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10320
03/08/04 03:39 PM
03/08/04 03:39 PM
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gary, send me three identical rods and i'll post pics of them, LOL. the differences are more than just what is apparent in the pictures, it is also in the critical mass measurements. don't be so skeptical, open your mind. any engine builder that see's these rods on a daily basis will tell you they're different, unless they're blind.
now, just to prove a point, notice the squared off end on the eagle big end? you can't make the same end on the cat, the forging is different. have i ever steered you wrong before???
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10321
03/08/04 03:43 PM
03/08/04 03:43 PM
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Without a failure rate, this post is useless! At least to me, I already have the Cat's and I'm using them.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10322
03/08/04 03:44 PM
03/08/04 03:44 PM
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Ofcourse not Dan. Its just that the rough forging makes almost any finished size possible. Even if they were the same, the end product is much, much different by looking at those rods and that proves a point in and of itself. Theyre different even if the forging came from the same place.
And, I for one see the value in this post. I see 3 pretty beefy rods there.
Last edited by Unlawfl; 03/08/04 03:46 PM.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10323
03/08/04 03:57 PM
03/08/04 03:57 PM
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good answer, but rough rod forgings don't have much extra mass in them. the outer surface you see on the H beam is about the same as what you end up with even after the rest of the machining is done. the final machine process is what really makes the difference in the end anyway.
plum, what do you want? if i posted about failure rates from my own experience, it would be worthless to anyone except me, and ridiculed by some as well. many peoples experiences are based on 1 or 2 engine builds or by the friends they know. my experience has been from over 30 years (whoopty do LOL) building at least 50-70 motors a year. i've said over and over which rods i prefer, and the reasons for my choice. i don't expect anyone to agree with my opinion, or my findings, but if they do, thats great. of course, if they don't, i probably won't change their mind and thats okay too.
all of the rods above are good rods, some are better than the others. if the final machining on those rods was equal, it would make my choice harder on which ones to use by just a tiny bit.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10324
03/08/04 04:02 PM
03/08/04 04:02 PM
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Thanks Dan. And I must agree with one thing.. Considering my next crank is going to be $1300, a couple hundred more for what an experienced builder deems the better rod is chump change!
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECID
#10326
03/08/04 04:36 PM
03/08/04 04:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,123
Grand Haven, MI
patrick
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I see the manley's needing a lot less block clearancing on strokers compared to the eagles and especially the cats (:
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1986 Silver/Twilight Blue Chrysler 5th Ave HotRod **SOLD!***
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: JohnRR]
#10327
03/08/04 04:38 PM
03/08/04 04:38 PM
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Posts: 17,926
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
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The Manleys were my first set of aftermarket rods, and I thought they were pretty darned nice for the money. Of course all the small ends had to be honed, but that was expected. The big ends were dead nuts, and needed no work.
I put them in and was happy...
Then a couple months later I saw my first set of Eagle rods in person, and I thought "well they're kind of the same basic shape, but they sure are alot uglier."
Not very technical, and I doubt I'm making enough power to break any of them...but it's comforting to know I got the right ones to begin with. One less thing to mess around with later! Thanks for the pics, Dan.
Rich
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: ZIPPY]
#10328
03/08/04 04:58 PM
03/08/04 04:58 PM
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Quote:
The Manleys were my first set of aftermarket rods, and I thought they were pretty darned nice for the money. Of course all the small ends had to be honed, but that was expected. The big ends were dead nuts, and needed no work.
I put them in and was happy...
that's a pretty commom scenario with the small ends. in past years i've noticed that wrist pins can sometimes have a pretty wide variance in actual O.D.
the pins we used in the enginemasters, which came from venolia showed an overall difference of .0006"
thats why once a pin/piston/rod combo is clearanced they should all be kept together IMO.
i also belive the trend in the industry is to leave the small ends a few tenths small to allow for proper fitting. different applications will need different clearance.
it's a rare occasion that i have to touch up a set of manley rods. the eagles by far have been the worst. the cats are hit and miss. i have a set i just checked and the big ends were within spec, barely. i've had very good luck with the scat rods as well. checking rods is the same as checking crankshafts, if you don't have the right equipment to do it, forget it. a dial bore gauge or an inside mic is not adequate. the sunnen (or equvelent) fixture is the only way to go IMO. anything else is too error prone for two reasons, user error is one, secondly, the accuracy of the instrument.
i hope this thread helps to enlighten or educate in one way or another.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: CHRYCOFAN]
#10330
03/09/04 06:03 AM
03/09/04 06:03 AM
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good decision on your part IMO.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10331
03/09/04 07:34 AM
03/09/04 07:34 AM
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Posts: 6,151
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Thanks for taking the time to do this post Dan. I have had Eagle, Scat and CAT H beams in my hot little hands before. The Eagle's were a little rough for my liking, but I bought a set anyway, it was what was available to me at the time. I have since sold them anyway. I liked the look of the Cat rods, the cutout along the beam is much cleaner than the Eagle's. I cannot honestly say anything regarding the Scat's , my engine builder had problem's with their sizing a few years ago, and has since steered away from them. I think he has started to order them in again. From the pics, if I was to buy any of the three, the Manley's look the best. When the Scat's arrive, I would be keen to see what they look like. Thanks again Dan,
AL...
Alan Jones
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10332
03/09/04 10:52 AM
03/09/04 10:52 AM
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Posts: 16,934
NC
440Jim
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Very good post. I am a numbers guy, so could you give nomimal measurements of the dimensions in my attachement? ie. E1, E2, C1, C2, M1, M2? Also, is the beam the same size in the other direction?
It appears that the Manley rod (right) has the outer part of the bolt area machined straight, while the CAT (center) is tapered toward the total width, is that right?
Do all these use the same bolt length? It appears that the part the bolt threads into are different lengths. Is that right?
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: 440Jim]
#10333
03/09/04 11:03 AM
03/09/04 11:03 AM
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E2= .098"
C2= .089
M2= .080
I'll have to remeasure the other area's. i won't trust my memory on those, LOL. i'll post back when i get them.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: 440Jim]
#10335
03/09/04 12:47 PM
03/09/04 12:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,480
USA
Molloy
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I've heard several of you mention the differences in surface quality between the rod manufacturers. Since cracks and failures often initiate from a surface flaw, like a nick, divit, or pit, then the surface quality should be a seriously considered as well, shouldn't it?
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: 440Jim]
#10336
03/09/04 01:56 PM
03/09/04 01:56 PM
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i agree that sometimes extra weight is just that and nothing more. a perfect example would be to take a look at an oliver rod. they keep the weight down but those rods can handle 1400 hp without even breaking a sweat.
surface finish is more important in the critical area's IMO. area's around the bolt holes, threads etc. i think all of the pictured rods have sufficiant strength for the normal combos in the 7-800 hp range. after that things do get critical. lighter mass if done properly is alway's your friend on those motors. i guess the fact of the matter from what we typically see listed on this board is that very few actually put any connecting rods to the limit. on the other hand, i do a number of "serious" motors every year and rod choice becomes even more critical.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: CRIKEY]
#10339
03/10/04 09:10 AM
03/10/04 09:10 AM
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Melbourne , Australia
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Any high dollar rod steel rod is an I beam, their weight to strength ratio is believed to be higher than the H beams. With most of the Nascar teams etc running them, I would be inclined to agree. Here's a pic of what can happen to a Eagle SIR rod when over stressed  If I was running an engine with a light piston and not revving it past 6500, I wouldn't be too stressed about running them. If you're swinging a heavy ol TRW slug, or you're turning it hard, that would be a different story. AL...
Alan Jones
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: LA360]
#10341
03/11/04 04:16 PM
03/11/04 04:16 PM
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what surprises me is that all the guy's that jumped on the bandwagon to say all of these rods are the same have disappeared. i wonder where they went? maybe all of a sudden they no longer feel the need to bring attention to themselves, LOL.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10342
03/11/04 04:32 PM
03/11/04 04:32 PM
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I sent you the promised info
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10343
03/11/04 05:19 PM
03/11/04 05:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,151
Melbourne , Australia
LA360
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Yesterday, I had a look at a set of Scat rods, they look very similar to the CAT rods, it would be interesting to see them side by side.
AL...
Alan Jones
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10344
03/12/04 12:39 AM
03/12/04 12:39 AM
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Quote:
I sent you the promised info
actually, you weren't one of the people i was thinking of when i wrote that, LOL.
i feel a bit strange calling someone out of the blue that i've never met to ask about some rods that were mismachined.
overall, the appearance of a couple of the rods are close, but the dimensions are not. that tells me there are differences in the forging, as well as the machining.
the scat and the cat rods do look similar, i got another set of scats in today, but there are some differences in the beam dimensions and the bolt holes. this thread has probably run its course. the instigators that prompted this thread are now nowhere to be found, LOL.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
[Re: LA360]
#10345
03/12/04 01:16 AM
03/12/04 01:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,547
State College, PA
RyanJ
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Quote:
Any high dollar rod steel rod is an I beam, their weight to strength ratio is believed to be higher than the H beams. With most of the Nascar teams etc running them, I would be inclined to agree.
Actually Nascar pretty much uses Carrillo H beams exclusively, some teams do use a Lentz or Arrow I beam, but most seem to be Carrillo H's.... 1.888 Honda Journals are the rage, or even the Quad 4 stuff was tried for a while, and I think the quad 4 stuff may be a bit TOO small.
Narrow rods, EDM oiling, small dia/length cassidium coated pins.... all the rage. Head on over to ebay, there are TONS of used Cup and Busch Carrillo's for sale all the time.
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Re: EAGLE, MANLEY, CAT RODS, DIFFERENT ? YOU DECIDE
#10346
03/12/04 10:04 AM
03/12/04 10:04 AM
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Posts: 16,934
NC
440Jim
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Quote:
what surprises me is that all the guy's that jumped on the bandwagon to say all of these rods are the same have disappeared.
Looks that way. It would be nice to hear them say, "you showed me, now I know they are different".
The picture shows a lot, and the dimensional differences tell more. Again I will say, this is a good, informative topic.
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oiling system. Maybe creating windage? What do you guys think? 
