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#2519825 - 07/09/18 10:51 PM Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field
kevin69bman Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 3636
Loc: NE OHIO
I have a 6 ft box culvert that runs under the road and on to my property when we have a big rain it over flows the street but yet it only flow about 2ft out on may side why is that??


Edited by kevin69bman (07/09/18 10:52 PM)

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#2519852 - 07/10/18 12:37 AM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 8923
Loc: Fire and Fury
A culvert typically has a water surface profile inside the pipe that decreases in depth toward the outlet of pipe. This because the culvert typically flows better than the upstream channel.
Look at the profiles half way down this page:
http://help.floodmodeller.com/elearning/riverhydraulics/Web_Pages/Culvert.htm
You are describing a type 4, 5 or 6 flow with enough flow that the inlet is submerged and damming by the road causes overflow.
If you look at the inlet during high flows you may see air bubbles emerging from the pope, air drawn from the outlet end (Type 2 or 3).
Now, the part about less water in your yard, either the channel through your place is smoother, wider deeper, or more likely steeper (or a combination of these). Typically roads create a flatter channel upstream of a road because the flow channel is controlled by the flowline of the culvert. Because the culvert and road is creating a "dam" some larger sediments rocks are dropping out and rising the stream bed. Is should be periodically cleaned. To reduce flooding on your property increase the size of channel and keep it clean or line it with smooth concrete or tires or tire sidewalls: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5370475A/en
Beware doing anything in a "creek" without checking with local permit agencies. If it's a simple drainage easement I believe you are allowed to maintain, but check!

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#2520008 - 07/10/18 12:46 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: srt]
kevin69bman Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 3636
Loc: NE OHIO
Thanks for the link

theres no blockage on my side plenty of room for the water to flow it almost seams as if the water comes down to fast and just over welms the culvert and did I say they just put it in this winter

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#2520029 - 07/10/18 01:34 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 8923
Loc: Fire and Fury
I think it's great you made the observation. In stream we have out west that carry anadromous fish we have been removing box culverts and replacing with arch culverts and the like with a natural gravel channel.
In my opinion the person whom designed messed up in his hydraulic design. There are several means to calculate flows expected at any point in a watershed from where a drop of rain hits at the top of a hill all the way to the ocean (even at high or low tide). The type of ground (gravel, dirt, clay, tree covereed, grassland, homes and/or pavement, area and gradient of the upstream watershed needs to be determined and then the expected peak rainfall rate is applied. From that the required culvert size is determined.
I can do it from here using topo maps, satellite imagery, soil maps and standard engineering principals without seeing the location (but won't).
Seems like the responsible has a few options, do nothing (perhaps get sued and/or fired), tear out and replace, or try an inexpensive fix of installing two or more smaller culverts on each side. Whomever the responsible is should be pretty embarrassed and may have option 1 exercised.

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#2520034 - 07/10/18 01:51 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 8923
Loc: Fire and Fury
p.s. because I live in CA and did work for public agencies I'm familiar with the Caltrans Manual pertaining to Hydrology. For anyone interested:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/design/manuals/hdm/chp0810.pdf
I will say that with climate change occurring we are seeing recurrent incidence of having 50, 100, and even 1,000 year storms at shorter intervals. This with ongoing channels filling in with sediment from reduced flows due to construction of dams and flood control features and also subsidence of land from elimination of regular winter floods the would historically deposit farm rich soils we are looking at looming infrastructure costs in the not to distant (geologically speaking) future.
Think about New Orleans, and most coastal areas and areas protected by levees in low-laying areas close to river outlets or junctions of rivers (or creeks). Add to increased frequency and duration of rainfall rates the potential of ongoing ocean level increase (glaciers and polar cap erosion) one can envision that the 40% (or a smaller ortion) of the worlds population may be looking ar relocation. It's said 1.5 million Chinese were or will be at completion of the Three Gorges Dam.
IDK if we will be impacted much in our lifetime, but know that all we (USA) have done to cut our impact other developing nations have done not so much.
I offer this not as a doom and gloom, but as a snapshot of the evolution of engineering and engineering economy that the planet faces. We actually study this stuff, but don't dwell on it too much as frankly it's pretty scary to think about.

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#2520236 - 07/10/18 07:56 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
ruderunner Offline


Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 1984
Loc: ohio
I'm not sure if that's getting conspiracy theory or not but, I think I agree. The earth has had many changes over it's life, big and small.

I'm of the opinion anything man made is of the small variety.. Even things like Hoover dam are small on an earth scale.
Otoh, even small things like an undersized culvert can have far enough reaching results to have an effect on daily life.

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#2520259 - 07/10/18 08:49 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
kevin69bman Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 3636
Loc: NE OHIO
Well here's the best part they took out a 6 foot round pipe with no head wall that didn't handle the water flow I asked the engineer about this and said you need to go bigger he said that 6 ft box would flow more water then that the old pipe did ya right it was worst

I agree we get big rains now every time its not a 1 in its 2 or 3in every storm

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#2520293 - 07/10/18 09:46 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 8923
Loc: Fire and Fury
was the 6' round at a steeper grade? It does not make sense that a conduit with more area flows less. Is the box 6' wide and 6' tall?

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#2520782 - 07/11/18 09:19 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
kevin69bman Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 3636
Loc: NE OHIO
I can text you pics if that works just pm me your cell # if that's ok with you
Kevin

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#2520795 - 07/11/18 09:44 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 8923
Loc: Fire and Fury
Pics are not resally necessary.I'm curious if the new box culvert is flatter in grade, or perhaps the inlet invert (bottom of culvert) set at a higher elevation than the old round culvert. Sure seems like the design missed somewhere.

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#2520805 - 07/11/18 10:12 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
kevin69bman Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 3636
Loc: NE OHIO
Yes they did put it down lower and that did get rid off the drop off to the plunge pool that was there all the riffraff they put in is now 25ft done into my yard they move it back already one time

I can tell you this the old round pipe a guy could and did ride his 4 wheeler into the new one he could not do that I think its 6ft corner to corner only

I think they screw up and didn't look at how much water comes done this stream

I need to teach or point out to them that we get lots of rain more often and lots more and make all the culvert bigger every were before they repave the roads this year

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#2525154 - 07/21/18 10:24 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
kevin69bman Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 3636
Loc: NE OHIO
Well I emailed the mayor again and said that the new culvert didn't work and they need to add a second pipe and here is what he sent back

I will stop in at your work with info about the 60" culvert. Our engineer said nothing additional is needed.

So Here is what I sent back to him.

Well he is the only one saying that!!!

Yes stop by to talk but we need to walk for me to show you my concerns and what happened Not just with the culvert but the work the street dept. has done.

Ok so let me get this right we took out a 6 ft round pipe and put in a 5 ft box Right?? He told me that the new culvert would carry more water well that didn’t work!! It over flood the road faster and flooded out my neighbor across the street

Maybe its time for the village to get a 2nd opinion from a different engineer just like you would for your house for all the water problems in the village.

Kevin

Ok so we live in a HOA and I have been president 3 time 12 yrs we have a 8 acre lake with a dam ODNR comes out every 5 years to do A report so when there was was a problem I had to deal with it so I learned a lot about water run of plus the right way to fix it

Plus I work on cars for a living and now lots of excavators and used then to fix the problems and learned a lot from them.

So I now when some one is blowing smoke up my behind.



Edited by kevin69bman (07/21/18 10:49 PM)

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#2526729 - 07/25/18 12:12 AM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: kevin69bman]
srt Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 8923
Loc: Fire and Fury
I was thinking about this and looked back. How did the meeting go?
The "engineer" may not now much about hydrolofy and the water surface profile inside the pipe.
The links I showed you may help explain.
A lot of water can go through a round pipe and an adequate amount of air can escape through a relatively small heatspace of a round pipe (the small crescent area along the top of pipe filled with air. A flat "roof" of a box culvert can become effectively "plugged" by the rippling of water flow.
His engineer needs to study hydrology more.
Other factors I mentioned previously are the grade and texture of the culvert, shape of channel, also the taper coming into the culvert.
I'd ask him if you can review his calculations. If he resists I bet there are none and you may have to put in a formal foia request.
It's too bad they didn't simply replace the culvert with a metal or precast arch.

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#2527139 - 07/25/18 09:19 PM Re: Storm water run off ? for enginers that work in the field [Re: srt]
kevin69bman Offline


Registered: 02/01/03
Posts: 3636
Loc: NE OHIO
I have not heard back or had a meeting yet I think I sent them into panic

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