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F/M/J body torsion bars #2468149
03/18/18 04:28 PM
03/18/18 04:28 PM
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Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline OP
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Anybody used the FirmFeel torsion bars??? I have an 80 Cordoba LS and was thinking about it. $695 US and I think $200 worth of install parts or?
Is the ride stiff with them? Is it noticeably better performance? AQny feedback at all?
Thanks


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2468643
03/19/18 04:33 PM
03/19/18 04:33 PM
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Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross Offline
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No car could use stiffer front bars more than the FJM bodies....but I don't think Firm Feel will ever sell to many of these as most of these cars are worth about the same as bars and bushings.
When I was daily driving Diplomats I was going to add some coil overs to the front to help the spring rate...but that was before you could buy bars.


A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2468816
03/19/18 10:45 PM
03/19/18 10:45 PM
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Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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I figure it is about $1200 or so Canadian to get them into the car. I'll probably keep this car so I'm on the fence= lighten the front end up or try the Firm Feels. I tossed a set of KYB Gas-A-Just shocks in all four corners, wow what a difference. The car is 170,000km (100,000 miles) and everything is as it left the factory..... only worn out lol


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2468869
03/20/18 12:20 AM
03/20/18 12:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross Offline
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You could end up with a pile of money in the front end of that car and at the end of the day they still don’t drive great. I built a few of them and was never 100% happy with the drivability, one thing that helped was replacing the big rubber pucks that the k member is mounted on with steel or aluminum.


A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2468936
03/20/18 03:58 AM
03/20/18 03:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,452
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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My last J body drove pretty good, no complaints. I just want this one to drive better.
It's going to have quite a bit of money thrown at it regardless, just wondering if anybody has actually ran the FirmFeel bars. Not too many by the sounds of things......?


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2468966
03/20/18 09:26 AM
03/20/18 09:26 AM
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Phila. Pa.
Mattax Offline
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My recollection is that the guys at FF did some racing with F bodies at one time. This wasnt simply lets make a part and sell it. Give 'em call.
Losing weight is always good but my inclination is go with the heavier TV bars and see what else is available in shocks, and sway bars.

Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2469008
03/20/18 11:16 AM
03/20/18 11:16 AM
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NYC
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MARCH374 Offline
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You should ask on F/M/J BODIES ONLY.

Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2469021
03/20/18 11:46 AM
03/20/18 11:46 AM
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Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Not sure what the stock wheel rate on the transverse bars is to be able to calculate an improvement. No doubt they could use some help, but what is the price of improvement as these bars are not cheap.

In my experience, better shocks is a challenge. I converted my last Mopar F body to use 1st gen GM F body shocks. That opened up a whole new world of selection.

Agree replacing the subframe mounts with solids is a big improvement. I also recall a magazine article series where they added strut rods to an FJM system to help reduce load deflection. A big problem with the transverse bars is they do both spring duty and location duty. With the big rubber bushings they have, location can be compromised under load which creates weird alignment angles. The struts prevented this from occuring.

Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2469513
03/21/18 01:34 AM
03/21/18 01:34 AM
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Colorado
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Bob J Offline
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Sway Away
There is also Sway away. I never used them but they are big in the Porsche world.


07 Porsche C2 997.1 6spd DD and SCCA Solo II SS
68 Plymouth GTX Convert. 493cu Hotkiss Wilwood Classic air, Building for Solo II Cam
65 Chrysler 300 Convert. project
57 Desoto 2dr. Firesweep 392 Hemi,Wilwood Project with son
2003 Dodge Dakota R/T "DEAD"
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2469538
03/21/18 03:03 AM
03/21/18 03:03 AM
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Northern Colorado
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Just from the little I've read regarding improving old American car suspensions, a shorter spindle is generally a bad thing; at ride height the centerline through the upper A-arms (bushings to upper ball joint) should be near parallel with the ground or pointed slightly upwards for the best camber curve. Apparently taller spindles are a very popular upgrade on GM muscle cars because the stock setup is bass-ackwards in that regard (spindle is too short).

It might be different in your case and I have no experience myself with Mopars that old but I'm willing to bet a lot of the "hardcore Mopar" guys who put shorter F-body spindles on their '50s cars were not too concerned about handling. Personally I'd put a proper aftermarket brake kit on there that's designed for the car, those cars were noted for their superior handling compared to GM and Ford stuff and I wouldn't want to mess that up. If someone makes a spindle for the '50s Mopars that accepts the later disc brake stuff you could throw on a pair of 11.75" Cordoba rotors with the single-piston calipers, probably the cheapest route for good brakes and it's still like 80% Mopar

Last edited by EagleDuster; 03/21/18 03:03 AM.

Khalid
1970 Plymouth Duster, 1993 Jeep Cherokee 4x4
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2469696
03/21/18 01:57 PM
03/21/18 01:57 PM
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Pikes Peak Country
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TC@HP2 Offline
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Shorter or taller spindles and their benefits or drawbacks is really dependent upon a number of other design parameters around it beyond just the height. Shorter spindles with matching control arm mounting points can still have net positive attributes over taller spindles with less desirable pick up points. It all depends on how it was designed. The muscle era mopars with short spindles had a pretty advanced suspension design for the era that still has a number of positive attributes compared to even late model cars.

I am unfamiliar with the 1950s era Mopar spindles and suspension geometry. I do know that the FJM spindles are 3/8" taller than the traditional ABE muscle era spindles under the most popular collector cars. If the 50s era stuff is taller, that could be great, but I'd also think their popularity, or lack of, could impact the availability of adapting brake kits to them. Many of the muscle era C body spindles are also taller than ABE spindles as well, while retaining matching bearing types, but also having differing ball joint mounting spread and tapers. The ability to have bolt on mix and match pieces in the Mopar world can be somewhat limited compared to the GM world and somewhat better than the Ford world, but it is still not ideal. There is also the possibility of adapting late model Howe, Laughlin, Flexi and other circle track manufacturers part to Mopars and creating custom suspenion curves, but then we are getting away from the easily bolted together and moving into engineering and fabrication concerns before being able to turn wrenches. Certainly possible, but not for your average shade tree guy.

Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: TC@HP2] #2469828
03/21/18 05:38 PM
03/21/18 05:38 PM
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Posts: 4,366
Michigan
MarkZ Offline
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I got the 300# bars in my Fifth Avenue and you wouldn't believe the difference it makes. Not cheap, but totally worth it. When I swapped them in about five years ago I also changed out the KYB shocks for Bilsteins.

Before the springs the car would still dip in the corners by a pretty significant amount. This was with the cop front and rear sways, solid k frame pucks and frame ties. New T bars flattened it right out and the ride wasn't harsh at all with 15" BFG tires. After the the 18" Nittos went on you could feel the road a lot more.

Next biggest difference was a Borgeson steering box with FF tubular upper arms.

Only thing I'm changing on the suspension later is I'm going to move to the FF 1.25" front sway bar. After I put a big block in you could feel the additional weight on the nose vs the 360 from before. Front cop bar is only 1.125".



1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: MarkZ] #2471302
03/24/18 12:27 PM
03/24/18 12:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,452
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By MarkM
I got the 300# bars in my Fifth Avenue and you wouldn't believe the difference it makes. Not cheap, but totally worth it. When I swapped them in about five years ago I also changed out the KYB shocks for Bilsteins.

Before the springs the car would still dip in the corners by a pretty significant amount. This was with the cop front and rear sways, solid k frame pucks and frame ties. New T bars flattened it right out and the ride wasn't harsh at all with 15" BFG tires. After the the 18" Nittos went on you could feel the road a lot more.

Next biggest difference was a Borgeson steering box with FF tubular upper arms.

Only thing I'm changing on the suspension later is I'm going to move to the FF 1.25" front sway bar. After I put a big block in you could feel the additional weight on the nose vs the 360 from before. Front cop bar is only 1.125".



Very much appreciate the feedback!!!
I'm probably keeping this one a small block. I'm planning on lightening it up a tad up front too.
You like the difference just with a torsion bar swap I take it?? It will cost me 1500 Canadian by the time everything is over the border so I just want to check!!! wink And the car still rides nice? Do you have the bars in combination with the aluminum pucks now? What did you not like about the KYBs? Were they Gas-A-Justs? Bilsteins noticeably better? Sorry for all the questions....


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2471441
03/24/18 06:41 PM
03/24/18 06:41 PM
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Michigan
MarkZ Offline
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Originally Posted By CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Very much appreciate the feedback!!!
I'm probably keeping this one a small block. I'm planning on lightening it up a tad up front too.
You like the difference just with a torsion bar swap I take it?? It will cost me 1500 Canadian by the time everything is over the border so I just want to check!!! wink And the car still rides nice? Do you have the bars in combination with the aluminum pucks now? What did you not like about the KYBs? Were they Gas-A-Justs? Bilsteins noticeably better? Sorry for all the questions....


Swapping the torsion bars was the last thing I did to the car. Already had front and rear cop sway bars, aluminum K pucks, frame ties and all new bushings throughout. Easily made the biggest difference of anything I did to the car. I drove it for a year on 15" BFG tires and the ride wasn't harsh at all. Car still had noticeable body roll before the bars were installed and after the car would stay square to the road - even on tight e-way entrance ramps at speed.

I used the KYB shocks on the factory bars, but stepped up to Bilstein with the FF bars. You really need a better shock to compensate for the added spring rate.

$1500 is tough pill to swallow though if that's only for the bars. I paid $650USD for my set maybe five years ago now. If you're keeping the car and want it to handle though, these bars are a must.

Also, to get the most out of these things frame ties are also a must. You wouldn't believe how much flex there is in the chassis.

Keep the questions coming. I'm glad to help out.

Last edited by MarkM; 03/24/18 06:51 PM.

1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: MarkZ] #2471470
03/24/18 07:09 PM
03/24/18 07:09 PM
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Posts: 16,452
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline OP
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Thanks sooo much MarkM!!!!

I'm going to keep this car I think. So I'll be dumping cash galore into it I'm sure. Yesssss I know it's money I'll never get back and noooo I don't care lol
I need to redo the whole front end. I just tossed in ball joints but I'm figuring which way to go with the car.
I want a small block that's mild and light- 408 I think.....
An 8 3/4, highway gears, I have Hooker 5115s and I'm doing 2 1/2" mandrel right out the rear. Dynomax Super Turbos for now
I'll run 15s, probably 275 or 295 tucked in the rear and 235 or 245 up front....
I run the car up around 100mph weekly, but I want a confident chassis and suspension and brakes. Got a Wilwood kit for the back. Might run Wilwood on the front, if the stock stuff ain't up to snuff....
I appreciate the input!!!!!


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2471524
03/24/18 08:55 PM
03/24/18 08:55 PM
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MI
MI Mopar Works Offline
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Do you have any pictures of the big block in your 5th ave? I intend to do a low deck swap into my Mirada eventually and would like to see how your s fits and how you went about doing the swap.


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Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: MI Mopar Works] #2471546
03/24/18 09:31 PM
03/24/18 09:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 16,452
Canada
CrAzYMoPaRGuY Offline OP
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CrAzYMoPaRGuY  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By MI Mopar Works
Do you have any pictures of the big block in your 5th ave? I intend to do a low deck swap into my Mirada eventually and would like to see how your s fits and how you went about doing the swap.


I did a big block RB swap into my last Cordoba LS.I'm interested in pics of that Fifth Ave too!!


CrAzYMoPaRGuY
Re: F/M/J body torsion bars [Re: CrAzYMoPaRGuY] #2471693
03/25/18 10:42 AM
03/25/18 10:42 AM
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Michigan
MarkZ Offline
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I used the Schumacher conversion mounts A73B8 to put the engine in. They come with instructions on modifying the driver's motor mount tower to get it to fit properly. It was pretty straight forward and once I corrected for my own stupidity it slid right in. The K on my 87 required some additional clearance for the oil pump and filter to clear. Be sure to do some fitment tests with the oil pump AND filter on. An additional benefit of using these mounts is that they position the motor correctly to reuse the same transmission mount.

The seam where the firewall meets the floor pan got in the way of accessing the bell housing bolts. Just had to put a couple slits in it then pound it flush with the firewall. This allowed enough room to get a 3/8" extension with a universal socket to get the bolts in.

Exhaust manifolds do in fact fit. I only used them for a couple weeks though as the plan was to swap to headers. I could never find a set that would fit the way I wanted with 3" collectors, so I ended up having a set of mid length headers with 1 7/8" primaries made out of stainless. Worked out better this way as they can be removed with the motor in the car and allow plenty of room to work.

The K frame needed some additional clearance to get the oil pan to fit, but I'm using the Milodon Road Race pan. Looked like a factory style pan would fit without any modification.

I was already running electric fans prior to the swap. A factory clutch fan would definitely not fit.

I can post more photos if you guys want. Cheers!

Last edited by MarkM; 03/25/18 10:48 AM.

1987 Fifth Avenue - 512/518/D60






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