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Cm vs Ms #2464732
03/11/18 01:50 PM
03/11/18 01:50 PM
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Ontario Canada
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MattW Offline OP
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12 point cage. What is the weight savings?
No i don't want a debate of whats better?
Matt

Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2464748
03/11/18 02:26 PM
03/11/18 02:26 PM
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Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda Offline
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Significant on a 12 pt. Roughly, I think C/M is 30% lighter than M/S.


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Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2464756
03/11/18 02:34 PM
03/11/18 02:34 PM
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Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda Offline
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This is all C/M except for 2x3 rails. With the engine and rear axle out of it, I can flip the chassis around on the floor by myself.

full chassis 2.JPG
Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2464775
03/11/18 03:18 PM
03/11/18 03:18 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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CMcAllister Offline
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Pounds per foot

1.675x.134 ERW 2.134
1.625x.120 DOM 1.929
1.625x.083 CMY 1.367

Last edited by CMcAllister; 03/11/18 03:22 PM.

If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2464786
03/11/18 03:43 PM
03/11/18 03:43 PM
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Las Vegas
Al_Alguire Offline
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IMO in a 10/12 point typical 8.50 cert cage you will likely see a 30-35lb weight savings with moly over mild steel. I think many people go Mild for cost reasons. The material is less money and in some places easier to come buy and also can be mig welded. Which means less fitment time and a lower cost. I know you didn't want that but for a typical 8.50 cage it is not a ton of weight but in racing weight is weight


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Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2464812
03/11/18 04:53 PM
03/11/18 04:53 PM
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Fulton County, PA
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I'm anal about weight. Beyond that ERW is not good unless you're building a swing set. DOM and CM have been pretty close in price. 100' of CM is 56# lighter than the same DOM, and 77# lighter than the ERW. Value of the car is higher. And IMO is a better car.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2464819
03/11/18 05:15 PM
03/11/18 05:15 PM
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Las Vegas
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Definitely way better resale


"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."

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Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: Al_Alguire] #2465602
03/13/18 01:34 AM
03/13/18 01:34 AM
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Rogue River, OR
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I was shocked when they handed me the main hoop with one hand...and it had the cross bar taped to it.

I had no idea it was that dramatic of a weight savings.

Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: Jeremiah] #2466496
03/14/18 05:36 PM
03/14/18 05:36 PM
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MattW Offline OP
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Thx for the info guys.
Matt

Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2466506
03/14/18 06:02 PM
03/14/18 06:02 PM
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Motor City
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If I remember correctly when we cut the M.S. 12 point cage out of my buddies G Body (GM) & did the 25.5 cert C.M. cage upgrade when all said & done it was 25-28 lbs lighter than the old cage.


1963 Belvedere 440 Max Wedge Tribute
1970 Charger R/T S.E. 440 Six Pack
1970 Challenger R/T, 528 Hemi
1970 Charger 500 S.E. 440 4 BBL
1970 Plymouth Road Runner 383
1974 Chrysler New Yorker 440
1996 2500 RAM 488 V-10 4X4
2004 3500 Dually Cummins 4x4
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Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: 6PKRTSE] #2466541
03/14/18 06:48 PM
03/14/18 06:48 PM
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Las Vegas
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Originally Posted By 6PKRTSE
If I remember correctly when we cut the M.S. 12 point cage out of my buddies G Body (GM) & did the 25.5 cert C.M. cage upgrade when all said & done it was 25-28 lbs lighter than the old cage.


Basically the same thing we have found depending on the car being done. Thus my 30-35 guesstimate


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Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: 6PKRTSE] #2466906
03/15/18 02:14 PM
03/15/18 02:14 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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Originally Posted By 6PKRTSE
If I remember correctly when we cut the M.S. 12 point cage out of my buddies G Body (GM) & did the 25.5 cert C.M. cage upgrade when all said & done it was 25-28 lbs lighter than the old cage.

So, how many more feet of CM tube did you use over the 10 point?

Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2466960
03/15/18 04:45 PM
03/15/18 04:45 PM
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Canada
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Any truth that CM joints need to be "stress relieved"? Read this many many years ago.
If true, how is it done?


69 Dart
Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: onig] #2466966
03/15/18 05:00 PM
03/15/18 05:00 PM
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MattW Offline OP
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My understanding its all about the cool down time.
In a perfect world yes it would be best to have it stress relieved.
I'm going with DOM 1020. For ME it's cheaper and easier.
Matt

Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: onig] #2466975
03/15/18 05:14 PM
03/15/18 05:14 PM
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CMcAllister Offline
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Originally Posted By onig
Any truth that CM joints need to be "stress relieved"?


Not in thicknesses typically used in race cars. Proper TIG techniques to keep the heat affected area to a minimum and getting tight fits at joints is needed though.

As per Lincoln Electric:
Q. Do I need to heat treat (stress relieve) 4130 after welding?
A. Thin wall tubing normally does not require stress relief. For parts thicker than .120", stress-relieving is recommended and 1,100ºF is the optimum temperature for tubing applications. An Oxy/Acetylene torch with neutral flame can be used. It should be oscillated to avoid hot spots.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2467091
03/15/18 09:40 PM
03/15/18 09:40 PM
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Charlotte, North Carolina
sgcuda Offline
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I thought I heard somewhere about 500 years ago that at some point, C/M tubing became available annealed and that stopped the need for stress relieving. Since then all C/M tubing is annealed.


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Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2467147
03/15/18 11:44 PM
03/15/18 11:44 PM
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4130 tubing is available in different conditions. SFI specs call for Condition N or normalized for anything used in the structure of a chassis. Sheet is also available in Condition A or annealed which is not as strong and easier to form. There is also a hardened material that was talked about a number of years ago after some well publicized problems but hasn't been talked about for awhile.

Years ago I saw a car that wrecked hard, came apart and hurt the guy pretty bad. Nothing was bent, everything that came apart looked like broken glass. And this was not a backyard car. You have to pay attention to this stuff and where it comes from.


If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: onig] #2467211
03/16/18 03:30 AM
03/16/18 03:30 AM
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Bend,OR USA
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Originally Posted By onig
Any truth that CM joints need to be "stress relieved"? Read this many many years ago.
If true, how is it done?

I remember the same thing but I think that was way back when NHRA allowed any type welding of C.M. confused
I don't think that is needed with Tig welding as already mentioned scope
Airplanes C.M. fuselages used to be welded with Oxy Acetylene gas welding a long time ago, I'm sure they needed it also shruggy


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Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: MattW] #2467312
03/16/18 01:15 PM
03/16/18 01:15 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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I like the idea and might anneal my tubing, how far out from the joint should this be done?

Re: Cm vs Ms [Re: cudaman1969] #2468312
03/18/18 09:28 PM
03/18/18 09:28 PM
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Lynchburg, VA
Leon441 Offline
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Chrome moly if welded with 70 S2 filler will not form a carbon line.

Some folks weld with 4130 filler. This produces a carbon line a couple inches from joint.

It best to keep welding area warm with cage warm. This reduces flash temperature. And do not cool welds.

Every broken tube Ive ever seen was welded with hard filler rod. They all broke in carbon line. If welded correctly you can bend into a pretzel and not crack.


Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.






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