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#629438 - 03/03/10 01:36 AM 727 fluid- What to use?
Pat_Whalen Offline
super gas

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 4481
Loc: Mesa, AZ
I tried a search but it didn't give me too many solid results.

Some people say Type F in a street/strip application. Other's say Type F is too old and doesn't have to additives required to last long.

Some say Dexron is the approved fluid. What I was able to find locally was Dex/Merc.

Transmission is going behind a stock/mild 440 in a heavy Ramcharger. If it makes a difference, I don't want to have to tear down the trans every couple thousand miles and the truck will be driven in Arizona (6 months out of the year might be pushing 100 degrees.)

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Pat


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#629439 - 03/03/10 01:43 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Pat_Whalen]
Lew Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 02/05/07
Posts: 316
Loc: Coolville, Ohio
I asked this ? not long ago, most of them said type (F), lets see what you stir up. I already put the F in mine.

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#629440 - 03/03/10 01:49 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Pat_Whalen]
Frankenduster Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 12165
Loc: Granite Bay CA
When in doubt, refer to the FSM. The new MOPAR ATF+4 will work fine, but it has detergents that the older transmissions may not need. PLUS it costs more. The Dexron/Mercon is the default replacement for the Dexron, Dexron II and Dexron/Mercon. Mopar Action recommended Type F for better shift quality and less slippage. I've often wondered if it is a problem to switch types on a used trans. It is nearly impossible to fully evacuate the old fluid without total teardown. Would a 95% to 5% mix cause trouble?

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#629441 - 03/03/10 10:51 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Frankenduster]
WILD BILL Offline
Senior Member of the Junior Dragster Club

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 10507
Loc: BROOK PARK, OH
I used Type F for years till I switched to Amsoil in the race car. Still use Type F in the 72.
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71 CHARGER, 9.953 @ 132.66 BEST PASS SO FAR
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#629442 - 03/03/10 11:21 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: WILD BILL]
Doc Fiberglass Offline


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 17475
ANOTHER vote furr Type F .....

And to the guyz that use Mopar4 and AMSOIL .... must be nice to have that COIN to throw-around when it is not necessary !

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#629443 - 03/03/10 11:41 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Doc Fiberglass]
aarcuda Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 03/17/03
Posts: 15463
Loc: the boonies
type F
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It's got a cop motor, a 440 cubic inch plant, it's got cop tires, cop suspensions, cop shocks. It's a model made before catalytic converters so it'll run good on regular gas.

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#629444 - 03/03/10 12:15 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: aarcuda]
Pat_Whalen Offline
super gas

Registered: 08/05/03
Posts: 4481
Loc: Mesa, AZ
So even though this isn't planned as a strip vehicle, type F is still advised? Any rumors to the fact that it doesn't hold up very well to constant high heat?

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#629445 - 03/03/10 12:18 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Pat_Whalen]
Doc Fiberglass Offline


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 17475
Type F .... holds up BESTER to heat !

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#629446 - 03/03/10 12:49 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Doc Fiberglass]
Lefty Offline
master

Registered: 09/05/05
Posts: 6508
Loc: Santa Cruz, California
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#629447 - 03/03/10 01:13 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Lefty]
stumpy Offline


Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 26240
Loc: Grand Prairie Texas
That ain't cheap compared to type F.
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#629448 - 03/03/10 03:02 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: stumpy]
CompSyn Offline
super stock

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 991
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission.

Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.

Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life".

Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.


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#629449 - 03/03/10 03:31 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: CompSyn]
ireland383 Offline
super stock

Registered: 11/14/04
Posts: 842
Loc: Suffolk,VA
I've always had good results with Dexron III.

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#629450 - 03/03/10 04:56 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: CompSyn]
John_Kunkel Offline
I Live Here

Registered: 01/20/03
Posts: 16260
Loc: Rio Linda, CA
Quote:

Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.




I would be reluctant to use the word "dramatically" but the simple fact is that type F has less lubricating properties than most other fluids. Consider that the Ford transmissions that type F was originally spec'ed for have clutch packs just like the TF and the friction material is similar if not the same and you don't see an epidemic of clutch failures in them.

Some (myself included) think that the lubrication to the front clutches in the 727 is marginal, a simple mod will take care of that.
_________________________
I'm supposed to respect my elders, but its getting harder and harder for me to find one now.

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#629451 - 03/03/10 05:58 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: CompSyn]
Doc Fiberglass Offline


Registered: 07/04/08
Posts: 17475
Quote:

Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission.

Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.

Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life".

Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.






Hey C S ....

Please define FREQUENT REBUILDS ?

In my 62 .... is a trans that I built back in the middle 70's ... it has had maybe 5 diff motors in front of it and maybe has 40k miles on it. The SAME type F fluid in it since day one.

Manual VB, trick drum, cut-down hemi band .... NO trash in the pan EVER.

Do you BELIEVE everything that you read ?

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#629452 - 03/03/10 09:26 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Doc Fiberglass]
bonefish Offline
master

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 6354
Loc: s.w.fl
in my 11.00 sec b-body street car i just use what ever is on sale or the cheapest,mix and match,been shiftin hard for 35,000 mi.but who knows mabey its gettin ready to prematurly fail.


Edited by bonefish (03/03/10 09:28 PM)
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#629453 - 03/03/10 09:33 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: bonefish]
383man Offline
Too Many Posts

Registered: 01/19/03
Posts: 24413
Loc: Balt. Md
I have always used the Mopar fluid and I use ATF+4 now. But I have worked for Mopar dealers for the last 24 years so I get the Mopar fluid at a real good price. My brother use ATF in all his race cars also and we have never had any tranny problems. Ron
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My car...63 Sport Fury Max Wedge wanna be street car..with new 493 pump gas full exh eng.......10.76 @ 124.49 ! ! ! My page on the cool 62-65 Mopar site ! http://www.1962to1965mopar.ornocar.com/mmo82008.html

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#629454 - 03/03/10 10:51 PM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: 383man]
dave571 Offline
master

Registered: 12/02/03
Posts: 5302
Loc: Carstairs, Alberta, Canada
If it's a driver, I can't see why you'd want type F. The best in 50's technology can probably be improved on.

Even ford guys stopped using it in 79.

In the same breath, the 727 isn't cutting edge either, so it is pretty forgiving with whatever fluid you want.

For me, I know modern transmissions put MUCH bigger demands on the fluid, as far as heat etc.. That said, modern fluids have to take up the slack.

Much Like 383 man, I work at a dealership (fordstore for me though) and get the fluid for a pretty good deal. I use mercon 3/dexron 3 curently, but we don't sell it anymore. Replaced with mercon 5, so that's what'll be in the car this year.

If money is a factor, a 20 litre/5 gallon pail of dexron 3 is pretty cheap at walmart.
_________________________
www.davesmopar.com 11.85 @ 114,3890 pnds, all iron, hyd cam, 750 carb, 440, 3.73 gear Im a musician too www.davesmopar.com/davesmusic.htm

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#629455 - 03/04/10 06:24 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: dave571]
charge70 Offline
enthusiast

Registered: 08/04/07
Posts: 293
Loc: Mass
John K. from the board told me to use a 50/50 mix of Dex/Merc and type F,which is now FA.John.
_________________________
1970 Dodge Charger R/T S.E. 1969 Dodge Dart GTS 440 M-Code 1970 Dodge Charger 500 383/4-speed w/A.C.

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#629456 - 03/04/10 06:33 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Doc Fiberglass]
CompSyn Offline
super stock

Registered: 04/24/08
Posts: 991
Loc: Pacific NW USA
Quote:

Quote:

Just know there could be possible drawbacks to using Ford Type F in your Chrysler transmission.

Frank Adkins explains in his book, Chrysler Performance Upgrades, that although Type F will cause a Chrysler 727 to shift better, the life span of of the front clutch pack can be dramatically reduced.

Then again in Carl Munroe's book, Torqueflite A-727 Transmission Handbook, "the type of transmission fluid used seems to have a definite effect on clutch life".

Sounds like if you have an all out race car and are not concerned about frequent transmission rebuilds, Type F is the way to go. Otherwise, a good Dexron fluid for a street/strip/show car would be a better choice.






Hey C S ....

Please define FREQUENT REBUILDS ?

In my 62 .... is a trans that I built back in the middle 70's ... it has had maybe 5 diff motors in front of it and maybe has 40k miles on it. The SAME type F fluid in it since day one.

Manual VB, trick drum, cut-down hemi band .... NO trash in the pan EVER.

Do you BELIEVE everything that you read ?




Doc, I'm sure glad you're around. Civilized debate is always oh so splendid. Great to see you.

The OP wants to know about automatic transmission fluid options. I informed him of the ideas and opinions of a couple authors, Frank Adkins and Carl H. Munroe, two individuals who are accomplished mechanics and who have been involved in the automotive hobby for decades. Between their statements, it becomes at least somewhat apparent that it's important to select the right ATF for the right application. Don't you think the OP should at least know the possible pros and cons to using any given type of ATF so that he can make an informed discussion of his own?

You provided him information that his transmission may be reliable up to 40,000-miles with Type F and that you feel, “Type F .... holds up BESTER to heat”.

That’s great, maybe he has some directions he can go in now?

I submit to you that since we are not living in the 60s anymore and have had some technological advancements in lubrication technology since then, there very well could be better options than Type F.

Since we know that high performance automatic transmissions can generate lots of heat very quickly and that conventional petroleum products break down and are not very shear stable in high heat extremes, a modern Dexron/Mercon Synthetic ATF may be an attractive option.

And perhaps that by properly building and programming the transmissions shift points, it won’t be necessary to mix and mismatch ATF types to achieve the desired shift performance?

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#629457 - 03/04/10 06:59 AM Re: 727 fluid- What to use? [Re: Pat_Whalen]
Mattax Offline
mopar

Registered: 02/28/10
Posts: 540
Loc: Phila. Pa.
Type F is about the last of the unmodified AFTs.
All of the Dex/Merc and related ATFs are friction modified. The modified ATF's change the way the clutches and bands grab and hold. All things being equal, the clutches and bands will grab quicker and harder with an unmodified ATF than a modified ATF. (They also may effect the release)

Things have become far more complicated in recent years due to the computers for the automatics.
Dexron II or III is hard to find. Here's a repost from another list of my conclusions in 2008 as to
what commonly available fluid to put in a torqueflite 727 or 9xx.

Type F. It's in a category of its own.
The only unmodified atf with a dynamic coefficient that
increases as clutches and bands lock up - resulting in firmer shifts.
If that's what you need, great. Drawback is that the fluid doesn't hold
up as long.

Of the modified ATFs, the options in order of preference:
1. Dexron VI. This is GM's current standard. By definition, Dex VI is
fully synthetic and has the lowest low temperature viscosity. That's
great for street and the first autocross run of the day. However, what
convinced me that this is probably the best current replacement (unless
Type F is wanted) was that several manufacturers specifically list
it as backward compatible to Dex III *and* Dex II.

2. Synthetics. Several manufacturers offer synthetics labled as
appropriate for Dex III applications. e.g. Mobile 1 Synthetic, Castrol
Syntec, Valvoline Synpower. But it seemed that if the manufacturer offered a Dex VI,
they stated Dex VI is the prefered replacement. (Valvoline, Mobile)

3a Dexron/Mercon. These are probably all fine - especially if the trans
has some leaks - since its generally cheaper than options 1 & 2. A lot of
people who post on the web and seem to be knowledgeable like to point out that
Dexron III and earlier 'no longer exist'. What they mean is that
GM is no longer licensing the early versions, therefore what is being sold may
or may not meet the former Dex III standards. My feeling is that may be
technically true, but the companies have other incentives to make sure
these products are what they say they are.

3b Dexron/Mercon - a chronology. Gleanings from the web (which appear to be
more substantial than wild rumors, but you've been warned).
Dexron II 1973 - 1987
Dexron IIe was for electronic controls & had extra cleaning agents.
Mercon 1992- Contained less wax than Dexron
Dexron III c.1993 - Similar to Mercon. Lower low temperature
viscosity than earlier versions. Said to have better oxidation
resistance and improved seal life. Not all agree on the compatibility.

4. ATF+3, ATF+4. Similar to Dexron but formulated specifically for
Chrysler transmission control modules. All of the manufacturer spec
sheets I found on-line seemed to agree - NOT recommended for DEX 3
applications.

5. Mercon V. Seems to be the Ford version of Chrysler's ATF+. Also not
fully backward compatible.

6. Multi purpose: Probably the same as Dex/Merc, but better check the
manufacturers recommendations. Seems like too much of crapshoot for
people who care about how the autogear changer shifts.


These were my conclusions and obviously others may come to different conclusions. I've used Dex II and III, Type F, ATF+, Dex VI at one time or another in my own 727s. The only one that I was really unhappy with how it seemed to effect the shifting were the ATF+3/+4. I'm currently using Dex VI in the leak free trans and Dex/Merc in the Jeep with rear leak.
--
Matt
67 Barracuda nb 340 TF727
85 Grand? Wagoneer AMC 360 TF727 np229

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