2016 5.7 upgrades

Hello,
I just bought a complete 2016 5.7 Hemi from a truck with the plan to put it in my 68 Dart. The engine has 11,000 miles.

The plan is the CASCAR intake with fuel rails, 4150 throttle body, Holley HP and harness. TTI headers.

I hate to tear it apart with only 11,000 miles, but I think a camshaft upgrade is in order.

Would you?
Stick a 6.4 cam in it without making any other internal changes. Is that possible?
Or, along with the 6.4 cam delete the MDS, change the MDS lifters, and new springs.
Or use one of the Comp VVT cams, like the 270 or 274 with MDS delete, phaser lockout, new springs.

The Dart has a built 904 with a 3500 converter and 3.73 gears. My end goal is a DragPack style engine for a street strip car.
Thanks!

Sounds like a sweet build in the making.

If it was me, I think I would make as few changes as possible to get it up and going. After a baseline I would start making changes and measure the results.

However I have no G3 experience other than driving one on the street since 2007. If I had raced one in the past I would be more comfortable in starting with a modified engine.

Whatever you do I think it is going to be fun.

Good luck with the project and keep us posted on your results.

6.4 cam is a nice upgrade and bolts in and is super cheap. In theory you should be able to reuse all the gaskets needed to swap it out as well as the springs. Personaly if the gaskets were at all questionable after removal I would replace them and I would use the 6.4 springs as well even though you can get away with the original springs. After market cams are extremly expensive for the VVT engine that you have and the 6.4 has some really good numbers and ony cost me $68 fromt the dealer VS $700 cam plus the aftermarket cams all need the phaser limited or locked and that means a tuner is required. The 6.4 cam will give you some nice gains without a tuner and really nice gains with a tuner.

I have worked on a lot of these engines now and never seen an issue specifically with a MDS lifter that is not common to all the lifters, the only issue I seen is rollers that quit rolling but that happens to both styles with in the genIII.

Thanks guys. That is some helpful info! Just to clarify in my head, a 6.4 cam, get some 6.4 springs and it's good to go?

I don't need the $90 lock out for the VVT to put in a 6.4 cam? I think I will leave the MDS alone too unless someone else has a good reason for taking the heads off to delete it.

I'm going to get a Holley HP system to run the fuel injection/ignition so I will tune it with that.

exacty

The Holley system doesn't have a function to control the VVT , you'll need to lock it, you don't need to buy the $90 lock, you can open up the phaser and place a nut or bolt in the vain's(veins)
6.4 is a great cam, in your situation I wouldn't be so quick to toss the stock truck cam, it's .517/495 lift, in lighter application it's blast, but if your in there to lock the VVT like Dave said the MDS cam is about $70 and it's the best bang for the buck you can buy.
keep in mind that the VVT system in these engines starts out fully advanced and than as RPMs and Torque management call for adjustments oil pressure retards the cam.

Because the 6.4 cam is bigger, I need to lock the VVT or the valves will hit the pistons?
I figure while the engine is on a stand I may as well make any upgrades while it's easy to get to.

New question.... I typically see 2 cams listed for a 2016 6.4 Hemi. I suspect one is standard and the other for automatic? Should I pick one over the other?

Thanks!

One is for mds and other without mds.

Thanks! I guess I just assumed they all had MDS. But thats not the case?

No need to lock the VVT with the 6.4 cam unless your computer cant do anything with it, even then I think it will just stay in a straight up position.

The manual trans cars didn't get mds... also remember you must use the correct lifters with the cam. The mds cam is a lot cheaper and my engine had mds, so that's why I went with the mds style. There was a post here before that the non mds cam makes a little more power.

I personally run megasquirt, ms3 gold boxes in my builds. They can control the vvt also.

I spoke to Mike at EFI Source right before I bought the engine. I haven't bought anything yet, so maybe I will get the MS3 box. I was going to get the Holley because my brother runs a Dominator on his Dragpack Challenger. If their tuner software is easy enough to use, maybe I will go that route. People who use it seem very happy with it.

Just curious, how can the computer control the VVT if it's just oil flow due to rpm?

Not really sure, but I believe it is an electronically controlled valve and the software has a table to adjust like they do for timing and so on. I never personally ran a newer one yet with the ms3, was just looking into keeping it vs locking it out.

there is a series of holes drilled in the snout of the cam through the front bearing and leading to the cam phaser, one hole advances the cam and one retards it, there is one solenoid valve in the peak of the triangle of the block and a single valve that I think is cycled to send flow to the advance or retard holes in the phaser and maintain a certain advance/retard based on RPM, Load and probably other variables. The cam sensor detects the cam position and how many degrees advanced or retarded it is in relation to the crank and makes adjustment to oil flow based on those two sensors. The oil flow there only affects oil to the cam phaser and not anything else so you could just leave the solenoid unplugged to plug the hole and not worry about where oil is being affected elsewhere in the engine, it will also let oil reach the cam bearing so it dont burn up.

You can take apart the phaser and block it from moving very easily, you can also adjust cam timing by blocking it in a more or less retarded/advanced position based on how much "shims" you use on either side of the vanes and thereby degree it in without buying an adjustable timing set.

a few dyno test I've done, has showed that the Non MDS cam made the same Peak HP and TQ #s as the MDS cam, but the Non MDS cam had a better average HP and TQ by almost 15Hp and 20ft tq, from about 2500-4000 but only you can decide if that's worth the $1??.00 price difference in cam and not to mention the price between the lifter types.

I've seen the cam drift back or retard it's self under high rpm and oil pressure when the VVT is unplugged and the solenoid is left in, not sure what caused it just haven't had the time to figure it out.
best bet just plug it if your not going to use it.

http://www.stankemotorsports.com/services/index.htm

So just to be sure, if you just unplug all the sensors in relation to the VVT/MDS on an VVT/MDS Hemi, you can keep the MDS lifters (they just won't collapse and do their MDS thing) and the VVT won't work (obviously) but it might jump around some and is best to lock out (if you aren't going to use it)?
Could you use MDS lifters on a non MDS cam if the MDS is no activated? I can't see why not but thought I'd ask.
Also, how many degrees of advance/retard do you get from the VVT timing set?

you should have no trouble running MDS lifters on a non MDS cam if the MDS is never activated, what happens if you activate the MDS on a non mds cam, I don't know. My guess would be it does not pop in and out quite as fast or smooth.

it starts out at 0 degrees and it can retarded the timing/cam up to 24 crank degrees.


"Could you use MDS lifters on a non MDS cam if the MDS is not activated?"

I don't see why not, but I would be cautious of the lifters bleeding down slightly in High RPM situation....honestly I never tried to use the MDS lifters on a NON mds cam, 1st thing I do with any MDS hemi is toss the lifters and buy new.

it's been my experience that locking the VVT is the best route if your not going to use it....it can be a great tool if set up properly think of it as built in traction control... my 428 in the 2014 1500 , would just fry the tires with the SRT392 cam, went back in to the engine, removed the lock out, my niece played with the VVT tables, and we got the truck to launch nicely by moving the cam back earlier in the rpm band.

Different story with the Comp cam, couldn't retarted the cam enough to keep the tires from roasting....had to go back to the right foot modulation system.


Now I've been playing around with the idea of advancing the cam by one tooth and then limiting the phaser to say 14 degrees ., haven't pulled the trigger on the idea yet, this weekend I'm going to see how it "looks" on a mock up 5.7
Dave any thought on it ?

This is what I found when looking into cams with mds/non mds cams:

"The cams for the MDS motors are unique because four of the intake lobes have a “primary ramp” that takes up the “locking lash” in the MDS lifter before the “secondary ramp” closes the check ball in the lifter, and the timing on the four MDS exhaust lobes was advanced by a few degrees."

I'm all about frying the tires, so I will lock out the VVT. I don't trust myself and my complete lack of knowledge to insert a bolt or something to limit the VVT, so i will buy the Comp $90 lock out thingy.

With the availability of really good 5.7 Hemis, I think this is a good discussion how to upgrade them SAFELY and not break the bank.

I think my original plan has change a little bit. I'm going 6.4 MDS cam, with new 6.4 springs (Rock Auto) and the Comp VVT lock out. I'm still up in the air whether to get the Holley HP or the ms3.

look at ric3xrt pics on the other thread he just poseted before you waste $90 on a lock out piece, you can see how simple it is, extremly simple.

Thanks HotRodDave. If I knew how to post a big thumbs up for you guys I would, but you'll just have to visualize it.